Author Topic: Scale  (Read 444 times)

suntzu777

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Scale
« on: September 17, 2017, 12:16:09 PM »
I have been thinking about doing a refight of operation Jupiter in 1944 where the 43rd Wessex division attacked hill 112 however after looking at google maps , grabbing a picture and overlaying a grid of about 1Km squares i have been thinking of how to squeeze 16000 British troops into such a small area , the rules suggest 1 element represents about 250 men which would then represent 64 stands of figures which when laid out on the table would take up about 22 squares at 3 elements per square.


looking at some pictures on the web regarding the battle it looks like the initial attack took a frontage of about 3-4 miles/4-6 Km (squares) so my question is how is it best to proceed and try and reproduce this battle within the constrains of the rules ?

Rob
« Last Edit: September 17, 2017, 12:22:37 PM by suntzu777 »

fred

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Re: Scale
« Reply #1 on: September 17, 2017, 01:06:16 PM »
Rommel only represents the combat troops.

So at 3 companies per battalion, with 9 battalions in an Infantry division, that is only 27 stands. You could up it to 4 stands per battalion as British divisions were pretty big with 4 companies and a support company, but that would be 36 stands, so about half of your initial estimate.

They will also have tend to deploy, 2 up 1 back, both for battalions within brigades and the brigades within the division.

So your first wave may be as little as 12 stands attacking, with 6 in support. With a reserve of 9 stands.

This hopefully helps fit things in a bit more.

suntzu777

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Re: Scale
« Reply #2 on: September 17, 2017, 01:47:50 PM »
Fred , here is a link to the picture i was looking at
http://www.battleofnormandytours.com/uploads/2/5/1/7/2517577/1916527_orig.jpg

it shows the complete corp attacking on about a 4 mile frontage with the 43rd division in what i would guess is about a 1-2 mile frontage or 2-3 squares in rommel terms

it all seams very compact to what the rules suggest

also what about the Churchill tanks that were attached to a unit for the attack , that will increase the number of stands/squares that are taken up by units so trying to cram all those forces into a small area seams very hard for the game

armstp

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Re: Scale
« Reply #3 on: September 18, 2017, 12:52:16 AM »
I may be a bit slack about such things but in my opinion you can worry too much about exact scales as stated by rule systems.  Particularly those at the scale of Rommel.  The Normandy front was very constricted, quite large numbers of troops were fighting on narrow frontages and due to the heavily wooded, hedged and habitated terrain very little fighting happened at long ranges.  Sticking strictly to scale in this theater is going to be quite difficult with some operations. 

If I were doing this scenario I would ignore what the scale is supposed to be and set up the terrain for the battle across a 10 or 12 square frontage then fit my units into that.  I have taken this approach with countless rule systems over the years and never found that it affected how the game played, and in every case gave a more realistic result than obsessively trying to fit the rules for ground scale to historical actions.   It is all a question of judgement and what you are trying to achieve.

robh

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Re: Scale
« Reply #4 on: September 18, 2017, 05:02:49 AM »
For an Operation Jupiter scenario you could change the ground scale to 6" = 500m and alter the artillery ranges accordingly.
Play lengthways up the table representing the area Rauray-Marcelet to the Orne River beyond Maizet-Feuguerolles. Hill 112 would be one objective but with the Orne itself the main goal.

Due to the dense terrain and very limited frontage of the battle prohibit any road movement across country (means you will need to show the main transit routes on the table).
Reading accounts of the battles the prolific use of smoke screens by the British  is mentioned a lot  (by both sides) so including visibility blocking tactics on the CP would be appropriate.

I don't think anything else would need to change from the base rules, although it would be good to find an approach for including the AT gun pockets that the British set up to stall the Panzer counter-attacks.
 

Kontos

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Re: Scale
« Reply #5 on: September 18, 2017, 05:33:44 AM »
For an Operation Jupiter scenario you could change the ground scale to 6" = 500m and alter the artillery ranges accordingly.
Play lengthways up the table representing the area Rauray-Marcelet to the Orne River beyond Maizet-Feuguerolles. Hill 112 would be one objective but with the Orne itself the main goal.

Due to the dense terrain and very limited frontage of the battle prohibit any road movement across country (means you will need to show the main transit routes on the table).
Reading accounts of the battles the prolific use of smoke screens by the British  is mentioned a lot  (by both sides) so including visibility blocking tactics on the CP would be appropriate.

I don't think anything else would need to change from the base rules, although it would be good to find an approach for including the AT gun pockets that the British set up to stall the Panzer counter-attacks.

Sam's optional rule for Massed AT guns should do the trick.
Never interrupt your enemy while he is making a mistake.

fred

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Re: Scale
« Reply #6 on: September 18, 2017, 02:02:18 PM »
I think what the guys are saying about adapting the scenario to feature the key points of the battle is what really matters.

Sometimes it can be easy to get bogged down in the details - which in a game like Rommel which is high level and quite abstract won't quite work.

I had had thought's similar to Rob's of making smaller squares (ground scale wise) to represent the dense terrain. Something similar would be needed for Stalingrad game's I'm sure. Otherwise you will end up with wall to wall troops and no space for them to move in - especially with the nature of combat in Rommel.

Kontos

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Re: Scale
« Reply #7 on: September 18, 2017, 02:57:39 PM »
I think what is missed here is the number of troops "committed" to each phase of the battle. Accounts state "elements of", "units of" such and such a division attacked or were to secure an objective. Forces were always kept in reserve to hold the original line, exploit success or reinforce failure. These, in game terms, are reinforcements and engagements of this nature were multi-day affairs. Changing the scale of Rommel doesn't "fix" anything. We are playing east front battles of 35-45 units per side and are not having these issues with 6" grids on a 4x6 map.
Never interrupt your enemy while he is making a mistake.