Author Topic: Infantry vs cavalry : no retreat ?  (Read 3455 times)

pilum

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Infantry vs cavalry : no retreat ?
« on: February 21, 2015, 08:14:46 AM »
In page 60 : "Inf units that are in the combat against cavalry do not retreat, .....
......rather all enemies in contact with it will have to retreat".

What is the PURPOSE of this rule ?
I don't understand why this rule is needed...

Perhaps the intention of this rule was to force players to charge (with cavalry) only weakened infantry : either you break the enemy infantry, or you retreat yourself.

For me, imho, this rule must be re-written :
"If you attack enemy infantry ONLY with cavalry, the enemy infantry does not retreat, etc..."

In the example page 61, in MOST napoleonic games, the British infantry unit Halkett has to retreat...(charged by 2 units, including a cavalry in the flank !).

Perhaps I'm missing something...

Help, please.

JJMicromegas

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Re: Infantry vs cavalry : no retreat ?
« Reply #1 on: February 21, 2015, 09:19:05 AM »
My understanding of cavalry tactics of the period is that if the initial charge didn't break the infantry they would retreat, regroup and charge again. I interpret this rule to take that into account.

Le Grand Fromage

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Re: Infantry vs cavalry : no retreat ?
« Reply #2 on: February 21, 2015, 09:20:31 AM »
Quote
In the example page 61, in MOST napoleonic games, the British infantry unit Halkett has to retreat...(charged by 2 units, including a cavalry in the flank !).

Really?  I can't think of any Napoleonic games in which infantry in squares are allowed to retreat from a Cavalry attack.  Surely not in any of my games.

Infantry either holds, or it dies.  But it doesn't retreat or fall back in good order after being charged by cavalry, because that would be an invitation to be slaughtered.  (Whether enemy infantry was also present or not.)
« Last Edit: February 21, 2015, 09:28:45 AM by Le Grand Fromage »

pilum

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Re: Infantry vs cavalry : no retreat ?
« Reply #3 on: February 21, 2015, 12:41:00 PM »
OK, thanks for answering me.

The intention of this rule is good.
I understand that if the initial cavalry charge didn't break the infantry, the cavalry would retreat, regroup and charge again (even if the infantry "loses" the combat).

Ok, it's fine for me.

What I don't understand is : why this rule applies to a combined attack of infantry and cavalry ???


Situation 1 (Red infantry holds a crucial objective):
Blue infantry against Red infantry : Red infantry loses the combat (outscored) and retreat.

Situation 2 (Red infantry holds a crucial objective):
Blue infantry asks help from Blue cuirassiers : "hey, big guy, help us to crush that damned british !"
Blue cuirassiers : "sorry, but Sam said that, if we help you, the Red infantry will never retreat, even if they are outscored !".

Conclusion : if you want to take a crucial objective, charge with 1 unit, instead of 2 units...There is a problem here...


doomben

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Re: Infantry vs cavalry : no retreat ?
« Reply #4 on: February 21, 2015, 01:10:32 PM »
Quote
why this rule applies to a combined attack of infantry and cavalry

The answer is still Sam's initial one.  In a combined arms attack, the defending infantry will either hold where they are, or they will be routed.  Having the infantry survive but retreat would make no sense - how could infantry fall back 500 yards and end facing away without the cavalry routing them entirely?

Quote
if you want to take a crucial objective, charge with 1 unit, instead of 2 units...There is a problem here...

A combined arms attack is rewarded as a multiple attack - the attackers throw more dice so are far more likely to do a lot of hits.  Extra dice are always worthwhile.  You may need a couple of attacks, but your odds of killing the enemy are good.

But yes, you could also defeat the enemy by using one unit to erode their Elan, then attack with the fresh unit when they are nearly spent.

For me Napoleonic combined arms attacks are a bugbear.  People can give very few examples of them happening, and most armies were organised in such a way to make them rare - like putting most of the cavalry into entirely different Corps from the infantry.  Not having players incentivised to try to engineer endless combined attacks is a blessed relief.

Cam


SteveBurt

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Re: Infantry vs cavalry : no retreat ?
« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2015, 05:52:01 AM »
If there are any cavalry attacking, the infantry will be in squares. So they either hold their ground or are broken.
Surely not too hard to understand.

pilum

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Re: Infantry vs cavalry : no retreat ?
« Reply #6 on: February 23, 2015, 06:19:27 AM »
Sorry for my post.

I have to say that I don't understand this game, and this game doesn't understand me. ;)

I give up. :)

Blucher was my LAST attempt, my LAST hope, to come back in the world of napoleonic wargames.

Another rule in the dump.
Sorry for all. :D

SteveBurt

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Re: Infantry vs cavalry : no retreat ?
« Reply #7 on: February 23, 2015, 07:54:15 AM »
What a strange reaction.
You query a rule, get an explanation, don't like it, and throw the rules away.
Have you actually tried playing the game to see how the rules work in practice?


xccam

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Re: Infantry vs cavalry : no retreat ?
« Reply #8 on: February 23, 2015, 08:02:34 AM »
especially as the example given, failing to take an objective and thus losing the game, only matters if its the last turn of the game. if it is not the last turn of the game, assuming every unit is a base elan 6 the attacker of 1 cav +1 inf should win by about 4-5 points (if the enemy infantry aren't on full elan you can fairly likely destroy them completely) vs unprepared infantry. the infantry doesn't retreat sure, but you can almost guaranteed crush them next turn and take the objective.
If your entire battle hinges on the result of a last turn charge on an objective that sounds like something exciting to me, not to be complained about!

JJMicromegas

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Re: Infantry vs cavalry : no retreat ?
« Reply #9 on: February 23, 2015, 08:33:50 AM »
I agree the reaction is over the top, especially since it is something that could easily be house-ruled to your taste anyway. No need to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Old Grunt

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Re: Infantry vs cavalry : no retreat ?
« Reply #10 on: February 25, 2015, 03:39:42 PM »
So the real moral of this story is don't charge units that have a full elan.