I don't have a problem with British being potentially outgunned - mainly because in some battles the British did struggle against the French artillery. The strength of the British army was in its excellent infantry - not its artillery.

P.S. Just FTR the probabilities are (at long range) of 1 DISR:

4-Stand as written = 68.75%
3-Stand as written = 50%
3-Stand with above rule = 68.75%

Same Btys at Close (Cannister):

4-Stand vs. SK0 = 96.50% (36.35% 2 DISR, 60.15% 1 DISR)
3-Stand vs. SK0 = 89.1% (10.95% 2 DISR, 78.15% 1 DISR)

4-Stand vs. SK2 = 89.1% (10.95% 2 DISR, 78.15% 1 DISR)
3-Stand vs. SK2 = 68.75% (68.75% 1 DISR)

As you can see the biggest disadvantages for 3 vs 4 base artillery are at long range and against Infantry with good SK factors. They are roughly about 75% of the 4-gun's result - and this may or may not have been part of a deliberate design effect by Sam. But FWIW I don't subscribe to the firepower effect being linear (i.e. literally 75% because the number of guns is 75%) - I'd think a 6-gun battery would be more like about 85%-90% the effectiveness of an 8-gun battery IRL (due to morale effects and other factors on troops receiving artillery fire of any type)...?

One must also ask why the British persevered with 6-gun Batteries - presumably not solely for manoeuvre purposes because if they were outgunned by 8-gun batteries consistently and by such a significant margin they'd have surely reacted (eventually) and reorganised the RA...?

(Note I've rounded some of the above % off to 2 decimal places for brevity).

Anyway just some further ramblings for discussion... :-)

FWIW in my bleat above I'm not suggesting that British Artillery (or Infantry) should actually be given extra dice or increased range (ala GK & Evan's suggestions) - after all the artillery was only 75% of the firepower of most continental gun batteries. The issue is more that the mechanics unfortunately draw an artificial distinction that inadvertently penalises them disproportionately (IMO) to the real world difference in firepower (i.e. for the number of hits needed for 0, 1, or 2 DISR to be inflicted on the target) - but I don't see any simple fix...

One other possible option as another type of "Shrapnel" or "special" rule like GK's would be not to change ranges or add dice, but just allow British/KGL & Hanoverian Foot Artillery* at long range to Re-Roll one die that missed - since they can never inflict more than 1 DISR regardless it just means they get a better % probability of inflicting _a_ DISR closer to a 4-stand battery's (chance of inflicting 1 DISR)... Perhaps only doing so if they did not also use the Howitzer benefit or simply saying they don't get the Howitzer benefit anymore? Basically it means if they get 1 hit on 3 dice they get to reroll 1 of the 2 miss dice to see if they can get the second hit to inflict a DISR... It won't make them as good as a 4-gun Battery but will give them something extra to make them more equal in value in the AB lists to a 4-gun battery.

You could play the same rule as a 3-gun Battery rolls 4-dice not 3 at long range, BUT (nominally) drops the lowest scoring die of the 4 from the result (so just uses the 3 highest dice to determine if a DISR is inflicted). i.e. it gets the same dice as a 4-stand battery at long range but can not inflict more than 1 DISR regardless as 5 hits are needed to do that anyway.

(* Only Foot Artillery because almost all Nation's Horse Artillery have the same issue - 3-bases strong - so rather than apply it to all 3-gun batteries you just apply it to 3-Gun Foot Batteries).

I agree that British are not a preferred option. The Infantry core is not that great (though Light Division and Guards are better options), ordinary British infantry are identical to others (Rel/Exp SK2), the 3-gun batteries are weak, and the light cavalry is pretty average and not organic.

I had a crack at my own alternative list for Peninsula British - http://sites.google.com/site/honourscenarios/alternative-peninsula-british

For a local tournament this weekend, I'll be fielding the following (assuming my opponents agree):
3 British Line (Valiant/Experienced SK2 Linear Tactics)
1 SK base
2 Portugese Line (Reliable/Experienced SK1 Linear Tactics)
1 Cacadore (Reliable/Experienced SK3 Linear tactics)
1 RA BTY (3 guns)
+ 2 Portugese Line

Cheers

Paul

Two minor changes we've incorporated in our games lately would likely have an impact on the ability of the 100 days British to play a bit better. One is the addition of one extra dice for firing if infantry are in line, and the second is the requirement for infantry to receive a disruption point if they successfully test to withdraw from a combat - if they fail their skill test and remain in the combat the game goes as normal, but retreat and you gain a disruption point for your trouble.

We've played several games where we deliberately did not try to retreat from combat and the only appreciable difference it seemed to make was the reduced time overall it took to play the game - the outcomes were pretty much identical and I'd say the back and forwards of attack/retreat etc is erroneously assumed to give an advantage but in reality just takes longer to get to the same conclusion within the variables of rolling dice.

This shrapnel idea is quite nifty.

Perhaps a "fix" to even up the British being a tube short would be to give them a special rule:

Shrapnel:

In the Peninsula or Hundred Days theatre, British artillery may fire shrapnel which increases their short range as follows:

Heavy: 14
Medium: 12
Light: 10

As you can see, the range increase is equivalent to an extra half of the reduced long range value.

Of course, the main issue is the dice reduction for Canister v Skirmishers. Arguably, firing shrapnel is not the same as firing canister and hence, the new rule might be as simple as saying that at short range British artillery fire shrapnel and hence experience no dice reduction for skirmishers. Given "standard" skirmishers are SK2, this would effectively mean that the British 3-gun batteries fire as non-British canister firing 4-gun batteries, which is probably what is really needed.

The thought of no-one using redcoats in tournament play was appalling enough to make me think that such a special rule has to come into play in my Lasalle games. Just a thought ... :)

-- George Krashos

The biggest issues that I see are the smaller artillery units...

Definitely - In fact in smaller AB List games (i.e. Core + 1 Support) they are a significant disadvantage, as almost no other list (of any other Nation/Sub-Era) has only 3-stand batteries to support Infantry or Core Troop formations and due to the way the game is scaled for combat factor that stand is a big difference, IMO.

As Can says above it depends how competitive you want to be, and also how small your game is (again like the Cavalry vs. Squares issue it's less noticeable, or less of an issue, in larger games).

Essentially 3-stand batteries are pretty useless at cannister range, any target with SK2 renders them little better than long range roundshot; versus a 4-stand Battery which will still get 6 Dice -the difference is whether you have a near guarantee of 1 hit and a reasonable possibility of doing 2, versus only an above-average chance of 1 hit. Basically a 4-stand Battery can sometimes gamble on standing and firing if charged (e.g. if opponent has only 2-DISR left) while a 3-stand never can stand and fire ever. Whether historical or not the fact is the way the rules work a 4-stand battery has the option and a possible chance of success in such cases (e.g. do 2 hits or do more or less guaranteed 1 hit and fight melee & with a touch of luck win), but a 3-stand battery could never ever contemplate such with some radically extreme dose of luck.

The other issue is with long range cannister fire - where the 4-stand battery has a very good chance of doing a hit, but the 3-stand doesn't - and I'm not arguing that historically they were equal far from it, but just that the coarse scale of the rules' combat factors means 4-stand Roundshot will cause 1-hit most of the time, while 3-stand roundshot will not - and in the bounce-through target hits and you have 4-stands about twice as effective as 3-stands. I'm just not sure 6-gun batteries were half as effective as 8-gun ones in real life...

As I mentioned in larger games this is a lot less significant, as artillery tend to remain on the periphery an just support other units or plug the odd hole temporarily, so the firepower difference isn't really noticed. But in those small AB List games where artillery might represent about 1/8 to 1/6 of your total force its significant IMO, since there appears to be no acknowledgement of smaller batteries nor no cost for larger ones (i.e. the British, and any others, get no compensation for having the small batteries - compare a 100-days French & British Core Force - everything is identical except the French get 4-stand artillery and better commanders)...

If you are ultra-competitive and play lots of Tournies or Competition Games you'd just never take British ever, especially not the 1815 list. But if you aren't a "have to win" type person and/or want primarily to play historical games agaisnt historical opponents (e.g. 1815 Brit vs. 1815 French) its probably not a major - and through Historical OOBs and/or Cam's point system you can compensate accordingly (although I now think Cam has been too conservative with the Arty Adjustment factors (I think 3-stand Batteries should get -3 at least, so base factor only 5, but Horse Batteries should get +3 instead of +2 (there mobility is far more beneficial in the game than their actual firepower).

YMMV of course...

:-)

Depends how competitive you want to be.

The British 100-days AB lists has two problems IMO - not very good Organic cavalry and 3-gun batteries. They don't really get much to compensate for these factors.

If both sides avoid using Organic cavalry in your games (or do something else to de-power cavalry), then the British are fine.

Cam

I have yet to actually be able to play a game but I have been following the forums and have read through the rulebook a few times. I am currently painting up a 100 Days British army and I have seen a lot of posts about how the Brits struggle to win a lot of the time. Why is this? Have I already handicapped myself by choosing an army with design flaws?

The biggest issues that I see are the smaller artillery units and the lack of availability of good cavalry.

Hi guys

Just a quickie, how would you do a unit of, say, 2x Sqns of Hussars and 1x Sqns of Landwehr cavalry? (Ex. 12th Brigade's cavalry at Leipzig:- 1st Silesian Hussars (2x Sqns) and 2nd Silesian Landwehr (1x Sqn).
My guess would be: 1x small unit of Hussars.
I don't know if this has been asked before, but I could not find an answer.

Paul

For this two forces I would prefer the now free nafziger OOB
Austrians http://www.cgsc.edu/CARL/nafziger/805LCJ.pdf
French http://www.cgsc.edu/CARL/nafziger/805LCI.pdf

But working on your example , I feel you have been quite hard with the frenchs representing each of the 1500 regiments , and even the 3rd Ligne Regt : (1800) with only two units each. Anyway as you seems to have applied the same patron to the Austrian forces it should not make any difference

I am trying to understand the conversion from OOB to Lasalle. I have extracted a couple of divisions OOB that confronted each other in the opening phase of the battle of Austerlitz around the southern village of Telnitz.
Any ccomment idea is appreciated, thanks.
Here is my conversion:

------------------------------------------------------
Extract from the OOB of the Austrian at the Austerlitz:

Advance Guard of Buxhöwden's Command: FML General Kienmayer

1st Infantry Brigade: Major-General Carneville
7th Grenz and 14th Grenz Regts: (1500)
15th Grenz Regt and Pioneers: (1500)

1st Cavalry Brigade: Major-General Stutterheim
3rd Chevauleger Regt: 8 sqdns (780)
Horse Artillery: 2 Batteries (8-6pdr + 4-howitzers)

2nd Cavalry Brigade: Major-General Count Nostitz-Rieneck
4th Hussar Regt: 6 sdqns (520)

3rd Cavalry Brigade: Major-General Moritz Lichtenstein
11th Hussar Regt: 8 sqdns (650)
Sysoev and Melentev Cossack Regts: (520)

In Lasalle it would be represented as:

1st Infantry Brigade: Major-General Carneville
2 Grenz
1 Grenz+

1st Cavalry Brigade: Major-General Stutterheim
2 Chevauleger
2 Cav BTY

2nd Cavalry Brigade: Major-General Count Nostitz-Rieneck
1 Hussar

3rd Cavalry Brigade: Major-General Moritz Lichtenstein
1 Hussar+
1 Cossack

------------------------------------------------------
Extract from the OOB of the French at the Austerlitz:

3rd Infantry Division : Général de Division Legrande

1st Brigade: Général de Brigade Merle
26th Légère Regt : (1500)
Tirailleurs du Pô : (600)
Tirailleurs Corses : (600)

2nd Brigade: Général de Brigade Féry
3rd Ligne Regt : (1800)

3rd Brigade: Général de Brigade Lavasseur
18th Ligne Regt : (1500)
75th Ligne Regt : (1500)

Divisional Artillery :
Foot Artillery : Battery (4-8pdr, 2-4pdr & 2-6" How)

In Lasalle it would be represented as:

3rd Infantry Division : Général de Division Legrande

1st Brigade: Général de Brigade Merle
2 Légère
1 Légère (Tir. du Pô)
1 Légère (Tir. Corses)

2nd Brigade: Général de Brigade Féry
2 Ligne

3rd Brigade: Général de Brigade Lavasseur
2 Ligne
2 Ligne

Divisional Artillery :
1 Division BTY

Cheers, yep it has.

At 6mm, I doubt that the difference in 6pdrs will matter, and my eyes ain't as good as what they were.
As for the 12pdrs, I'll take them as 8x 12pdrs.

Just have to start buying, painting and basing now.

Paul

OOB states 'Except where stated otherwise, all artillery batteries consist of six cannon and two howitzers of Prussian manufacture'

Notes relating to your selected batteries below;

6pdr Foot #10 consisting of six heavy 6 pdrs. and two howitzers
12pdr Foot #4 consisting of French cannon captured at Halberstadt

Looking in Digby Smith's book on the Prussian Army the heavy 6pdrs had longer barrels but still bronze. I don't think you will be able to depict a specific pattern of Prussian gun so the standard 6pdr from your preferred manufacturer would be the way to go.
With the 12pdr #4 it is not clear if the battery included howitzers as the comment states cannon perhaps it was 8 x 12pdr.

I have to add that I have not seen this information anywhere else, Hofschroer lists German General Staff as main source with additional info from Plotho and Quistorp of which I have only seen Plotho's oobs.

HTH

Nigel

Paul,

A fine choice, will check the book tonight and post back.

Nigel

Cheers Nigel

5th Brigade in 3rd Corps is my preference, with a Cavalry Bde (3x Dragon Regts + an attached Horse Bty) and a 12pdr Bty as extras. So we are talking about the 10th Foot, 5th Horse and 4th Foot (Hvy) Batteries. All these are Regular Batteries, I believe.
Will possibily add the 6th Bde later (16th Foot Battery).

Paul

Paul,

Officially all Prussian Batteries were 6 x guns & 2 x Howitzer.
According to the OOB in Hofschroers Landwehr & Landsturm book there were some exceptions e.g. 8 x 6pdr, 8 x gun & 2 x how.
IIRC though all the exceptions were in reserve artillery batteries so Brigade Foot Batteries were 6 x 6pdr & 2 x how. I & II Corps had all Prussian guns, in III Corps most were Prussian, with some British and the 12pdrs captured French. IV Corps mainly British.

Is there is a particular unit you wish to represent?

Nigel

Could someone please confirm for me the composition of the Prussian Artillery Batteries at the time of Leipzig (eg. Brigade Foot Battery:- was it a) 8x 6pdrs, or b) 6x 6pdrs + 2x 7pdr Hows?).
The reason I ask this, is that on the napoleonistka.atspace.com website, it has the Brigade Foot Batteries as 8x 6pdrs, but other sources I have seen have them at 6x 6pdrs + 2x 7pdr Hows.
Same goes for Horse (8x 6pdrs, or 6x 6pdr + 2x 7pdr Hows) and Heavy Foot (8x 12pdr, or 6x 12pdrs + 2x 10pdr Hows) Batteries.

Paul

When reading and seeing it wasn't covered in the lists, not that I'm advocating that it should be, I went back and reread everything in the Army Builder general rules and then reveiwed the Prussian rules and lists to see if I had missed something.

It occured to me that perhaps something had been meant for the light cav brigade or the mixed "abteilung" cav. Yet I can understand the issue over the Landwehr cav, and perhaps one extra die would be ok?

I do like the idea of exchanging 1 of the Hussars for a Ulhan (with the plus 2 dice), yet I suspect this goes along with the idea that if it was in the rules, then many would do it, and it really wasn't the norm. Maybe this is the same with the Cavalry Abteilung as well?

I have the ratings for them in the Unit Values on page 112, but I resisted creating an "Uhlan Brigade" support choice because... well, there was no such thing. The Uhlans were invariably dispersed among other cavalry with no rhyme or reason: 2 Hussar units and an Uhlan unit in this brigade... a Dragoon here, an Uhlan there...

I suppose it might be a fun Optional Rule to allow a Prussian player to substitute one of his Hussars for an Uhlan, if he wants.

The one that gave me the most concern was the Landwehr Uhlans. Some Landwehr cavalry had lances, some didn't. And again there was no rhyme or reason as to when they might. I finally decided against creating a "Landwehr Lancer" unit for the Army Builder, simply because I felt that giving them the extra 2 dice against an infantry square was an exaggeration of their capabilities.

For the Prussian army lists, there is mention made under the unit values area of Uhlans, and also in the "Prussian Notes", but I didn't see them listed in the lists themselves. So how does somebody work such into the lists, or is this only there for historical scenarios?

That's right. I misread the list the same way before I noticed the box spanned two columns.

My mistake I have re-read the how the list works.

For Liberation or 100 Days I get the same list;

2 Infantry
3 Reserve
2 Landwehr
1 Landwehr Cav
+
2 SK bases
1 Foot BTY
1 Reserve
1 Landwehr

Right?

Looking at he list on the downloads page, is the 100 days list correct?

What are the 2 Sk units? Is the list really only 2 units in defence (the 2 SK units and a foot Battery?

thanks

JP

Yes, the rules include urban fighting.

I read an account of the Battle of Nations and was interested in the defection of the Saxon army from the French to the Allied side. I think a Saxon army would be a great choice because you could fight anyone. Pre-Leipzig or post?

I also was impressed with the description of the heroism of Poniatowsky's Poles. Do the rules accommodate close-action street fighting, even house-to-house fighting with fixed bayonet?

Forgive my very amateurish historical knowledge. I have a lot to learn.

Not to my knowledge.

Does he wargame?

[ though I would rather Dr. Markham stick to history rather than sneaking in the occasional political commentary...]

That's been my feeling (and many others' feeling) about him for years. Although it's usually 200-year-old political commentary, not current, when I've seen him talk: he's a pretty enthusiastic Bonapartist.

It does make for some fireworks at academic conferences, though.