What a wonderful thing this RULES archive is! We have had exactly this discussion forming recently. Page 30 really does clear it up. This also means that the first line on manouvres (page 27) is actually incorrect, as the section on formation changes is in the movement section of the rules. All that matters is that we now understand what Sam was trying to put over. Once again, thanks Sam. Maybe you should consider modifying page 27's comment to remove any further issues.

Trev

Ah... yes, the Discipline Table just below!!!! per page 19. I'm going to quit while I'm behind!

Aha, AJ, you fell in the trap... :) the 6s on the QRF sheet don't mean anything it is just a representation of dice, you need to roll 3s for exp-regulars or 4s for amat/irregulars as per the recovery table... ( Sam, in any next editions you better draw the dice at an angle :) )

I agree, this is a very useful thread, and it would be more fun over a table with minis :)

cheers
Francisco

seldon - you are correct, I miss-typed. You can not change formation and charge, you can on wheel (limited).

Okay, so I can try to recover if I change formation during the Activity Phase. It will just take two 6's, one for the "Basic Test" and one for "if you moved" test (plus a possible 3rd if near enemy). Once again, my guys don't stand a chance with me rolling.

Great discussion... just wish we could being doing it over a table full of miniatures!!!!!

Cheers!
AJ

[you are allowed to do recovery if you did a formation change, it will be at least at 2 dice ]

Correct. Changing formation is "movement." So it makes Recovery harder.

But it is not a "Maneuver," that would prevent recovery altogether.

Thanks, Sam,
so points 1 and 3 that I presented are incorrect, formation change is in fact considered movement for the recovery test ( missed that when I read )...

point 2 remains, though, correct? ie. you are allowed to do recovery if you did a formation change, it will be at least at 2 dice ( +1d for moving ), but will be allowed due to formation change not being a maneuver. ( all this refers to activity phase and is independent of reaction phase which has no impact on the activity phase).

Correct ?

thanks for the clarifications
cheers

Francisco

Several folks have talked about sub-commanders with -1 vigor and the fact they would just assign a couple units to them.

Not sure what you're getting at here - you assign units to subcommanders before you roll for their vigor and tactics.

[It seems that you are saying that units that do formation change in the "reaction" phase can try to recover, while units that do formation change in the "activity" phase cannot recover...]

What happens in the Reaction Phase doesn't matter. Your reactions will be followed by combat, anyway, except for firing in some cases, so there may indeed be further movement (advancing or falling back.)

What happens in the Activity Phase matters. As per p.30: "...if it moved in the Activity Phase (including changing formation)..."

mmm, Allen, now you've really confused me :). I am not playing it like that at all.

Here is where I play it differently:

1) you mention react to change into square, then in activity form into attack and then charge... I thought there is no formation change before charging. You are only allowed a wheel.

2) You mention you count formation change as part of movement ( maneuver ), but movement and maneuver are different. In fact in the rules formation changes happen at the start of the activity phase affecting movement or maneuver hence it seems to be neither.

That is why I've been assuming that formation change has no impact on recovery. Your points about the logic or spirit of the rule are well taken, but it could also be rationalized that when you do a formation change it is also part/helps with recovery ( redressing the lines ), hence it does not interfere. ( I believe this is in line with Marke's comment ).

I guess I am unsure which way it should be played now. I don't think it is a game changer, but it is better to clarify it before any tourneys start.

As we were playing it it was like this:

1) formation change is neither movement neither maneuver
2) recovery is not possible if you maneuver but it is possible if you do formation change as it is not a maneuver
3) if you try to recover and you only did the formation change you don't get the extra dice since it is not a move either

as a side note
4) you are not allowed to do a formation change and charge

I'd be curious to see what is Sam's view on the correct interpretation.

Allen, thanks for your detailed explanation of your interpretation ( always helps to look at things from another point of view ).

cheers
Francisco

Simple terms: Formation changes and maneuvers during the Activity Phase are part of movement. Formation changes in the Reaction Phase are part of combat.

Long explanation:
The difference is formation change is considered part of "movement" in the Activity Phase, while if it is part of the Reaction phase it is not part of "movement." Think about it, you can actually change formation 2x during your turn. Once to react, a second time to move. I form my inf into square to fight off a cav unit (Reaction Phase). I do, the cav unit runs away (Combat Phase). I change formation to attack column and charge a close by inf unit (Activity Phase). Looking at the big picture, marke has a good take. Looking at it strictly by the rules, it depends on what phase you change formation in. I also go back to the chart on page 25, I would count formation change as part of movement (maneuver) in the Activity Phase. Take the fact that if you change formation with your Exp inf near the enemy, you can't move at all. If I can't even move, I don't see how I could recover. I understand that you can try to recover if you only move forward (simple movement). In most cases, if you do change formation you can't move. Look at Amateur troops, they can only move if they started in March formation. Anything else, they just don't have enough "training/skill" to move. Once again, how could they try to recover? As marke stated above, it takes a lot of effort just to maintain formation.

Also, even if you only move forward, your chances of recovery are slim, near the enemy... the way I roll, it would be impossible... I probably on roll three "6's" the whole game for recovery.

Most games you react after someone moves then fight combat. And actually you are doing that here just not in the traditional sense. Look at the way the rules are explained in the book. Activity Phase first pg 25 (opponents), then Reaction pg33 (yours), then Combat pg 53 (yours - as defender),then your Activity Phase, so on... In the end, it probably would clear everything up if the rules stated "- it performed any maneuvers/formation changes."

One thing I found interesting is the sub-commanders don't apply their modifiers, but the unit still has to be in command to attempt to recover. Several folks have talked about sub-commanders with -1 vigor and the fact they would just assign a couple units to them. Recovery is a case where even a -1 sub-commander will be of service.

Keith/Francisco - I understand your comments, it took me several readings to get my mind around the concept. And yes, it took some "that's the way it is" to help. What really messed with me is the order. Thanks for the discussion, overall it has really helped me to get a handle on the flow of the game.

V/r,
Allen

Exactly , it doesn't matter when they change formation , reaction or activity they can still recover ?
I don't know what AJ is on about either :)

AJBartman,
I am a bit confused by the points you brought up and since Sam said your interpretation was correct then I want to see if I understand.

It seems that you are saying that units that do formation change in the "reaction" phase can try to recover, while units that do formation change in the "activity" phase cannot recover...

I am confused since my reading of the rules was like the original post, maneuvers do not include formation change hence if a unit in the activity phase does a formation change and then simply moves forward it should be allowed to recover.

Where are you reading the differences that you bring up between reaction and activity phase, and why do you consider a formation change in the activity phase a maneuver?

thanks,
cheers

Francisco

Sam - sorry about that, I should have said "maneuver."

marke - your right on "mark."

Actually wheeling or anything other than a straight move with a big formed unit can be hard, so it's not a simple thing even to do slightly. I see the NCO's racing around dressing the lines in a wheel/or other move and making sure the existing formation stays as it was, thus no recovery but a move instead.

Alternatively, when forming a square or making other format chnages those same NCO's are racing around putting people in the right place and filling holes - i.e. allowing for the potential of a recover roll.

So this makes sense to my thinking anyway. :)

[if you move, you can't recover]

No, you can move and recover, you just can't perform a difficult move (i.e., a "maneuver."

Yes your right. No matter where you're at, if you move, you can't recover. If your under pressure and haven't moved you can attend to tighten your formation (recover). Remember recovering is part of the Activity (movement phase) not part of the Reaction phase. Think of it as dressing your lines (formation). Something you really can't do if your are maneuvering. I agree it may not be the smoothest flow of events but I think I can get my hands around it if, once again, I think big picture. It's similar to the fact that I have to change formation first, then move. I can't move then change formation. And I shoot then move, not move then shoot.

Yeah , I'll just have to get over it , but it always comes up.

e.g.
A unit a long way from the enemy makes a slight manouver and can't recover.

A unit in line under threat from cavalry and being pounded forms square under musketry and all hell breaking loose around them can attempt to recover.

Surely moving into a formation is recovering the lines etc?

Why don't you consider a change of formation a "Manouver" ?

AJBartman is correct on all counts.

As for Keith's question, well, there's no good answer, simply because I didn't want to write a rule trying to say how much of a wheel or whether this or that portion of a maneuver exempted you from the recovery roll, so to keep it simple, I just said "no maneuvers," period.

I don't understand how a unit that forms square from line can recover but a unit that makes a slight wheel cannot recover ?

Actually if you step back and look at the sequence, a unit that changes formation in the reaction phase may still move and maneuver. Looking at the "Formation Change Table", pg 25, that formation changes impact movement therefor limiting what units can do. I would say that if it change in the reaction phase yes it could. If done during Activity Phase, no. Remember what is simulations - "The process represents the dressing of lines..." In my mind, this is "cleaning up the formation" and would be similar to a formation change just at a lesser extent.

And then I could be totally wrong...

According to the rules a change of formation is not a manuver and therefore would allow recovery.

In a game last night I know we played the recovery controls wrong and I noticed it this morning on checking the rules. So it's interesting that this thread was started. :)

However, I would assume that formation changes but their nature redress ranks to one level or another, and so my reading of the rules is they alone do not block recovery attempts. After all they are not covered under the explicit description of maneuvers.

Surely, logically, a change of formation should prevent recover. That is if the intention is to represent "time taken" By this I mean changing formation wouldnt allow enough time to redress the ranks also?

I guess the opposing argument is the changing formation and reforming are to an extent part of the same thing.

jon

I read it as they could only have moved straight. I see your point, formation changes are not listed under "maneuvers: wheel, oblique, about face, flank move, retrograde, interpenetrate." If you count formation changes just as reactions, then yes you could try to recover. I hate when I think I know something, then someone asks a question and I realized I don't.

Quick question from tonight's game.

Fromthe rules :- A unit may not attempt to recover if "it performed any manouvers"

Surely a change of formation is a manouver ?

Rich - correct on both counts. I'll probably add that to the "clarifications" section.

It is a discipline test where vigour does not count and it has to be taken on 1-3 dice depending on what the unit has done and where it is. The only question we have is : Is changing formation count as moving and thus requires 2 dice ... we presume it does. We also presume that changing formation is not a manouver as it is not listed as so.

Rich

You're correct.

Page 19 "A unit rolling to recover does not add the modifier for vigor". Same thing with different wording on page 30.

The sixes on the chart, I believe, are just diagrams representing dice needing to be rolled, not the number 6.