Agree that it's not easy, but it should be done nonetheless....reason I say militia is shaky and not unpredictable is that the only militia that I can think of that fought well was the Georgia militia at times and the new orleans city militia....both of which should be classed as volunteers IMO

I was tinkering around with some War of 1812 AB stuff and ratings last year. I wrote some notes down and I should try to find them and share them here. It wasn't a serious effort because anyone who has studied this part of Napoleonic history - yes, I consider the war in America an off-shoot of the Napoleonic Wars - knows that its not easy to make a generic AB list that fits nicely into a "Lasalle" format.

As for troop ratings, again, not easy to "standardize" this for the forces involved, especially the American forces. For the American forces, and in some extent for the British/Canadian forces, one might need to make board reaching assumptions keeping in mind that not until later in the war were US troops of better quality. But there are exceptions. As the war progressed, some US forces were as good or even better than British/Canadian forces. For example, I would say that Scott's Brigade in 1814 would be first rate. And for those that think the British regiments were all top notch, think again. The 103rd Foot for example was one of the worst regiments to serve in Canada, and performed just as bad as any militia unit.

Speaking about the militia, and on both sides, I think Unpredictable is a good choice. Even though President Madison was a strong supported of the militia concept, he quickly changed his mind after he witnessed the fiasco outside Washington. He said, "I could never have believed that so great a difference existed between regular troops and a militia force, if I had not witnessed the scenes of this day in person."

Militia & Artillery

Militia Infantry
Shaky/Amateur/SK2 (special US shooting rule?)

Artillery
Medium/3/1
Light/3/0

Volunteer Troops

Volunteer Infantry
Reliable/Amateur/SK3 (special US shooting rule?)

Volunteer Rifles
Valiant/Amateur/SK3 (special US shooting rule?)

Volunteer Cavalry
Reliable/Amateur/Pursuit (may dismount + special US shooting rule?)

Troop ratings
Decided on a mix of our idea

1808 est. US Regulars and late war US Regulars
Reliable/Experienced/SK2

Other Regulars
Unpredictable/Experienced/SK2

U.S. Rifles
Valiant/Experienced/SK3 (special U.S. Rifle rule?)

Light Dragoons
Reliable/Experienced/Shock/Pursuit

2 regiments of regulars and marines too and a troop of light Dragoons and a battery of artillery or two. Besides, the Battle of New Orleans wasn't just the fight at the barricades, there were some rather sharp clashes before that in which cavalry/regulars played major roles. Jacksons regulars were his dependable workhorse and formed the vanguard in advance and rearguard in retreat.

Two regiments of regulars at new Orleans was a rather significant part of the army

While the cavalry was small, it could still play a decisive role when used correctly

Point is that we can't try to make an army list that would suit every battle, we have to make something that will work against other lists and at the same time capture the American fighting style and spirit. I think each force above would give you something representative of an American force.

I just don't see how you can rate the original us regiments as second class, these were long service troops who have been fighting for years. Malaria took it's toll in 1806, but were talking six years to replace the losses.

The New Orleans point was about the regulars being a small part of the army and therefore that list would not apply. It is so anomalous that I might just not bother with it for list generation - my New Orleans scenario has 5 batteries per side for instance.

As far as first rate/ second rate I think we are in agreement about what who we are talking about - where we differ in on whether there was a mix of the two in the same army or if they were two distinct armies, one with 2nd rate (1812-13) and one first rate (1814-15) - I am of course in the latter camp.

My point for cavalry is that it should be rated low for both sides as there was so little of it.

No debate about the rifle regiment.

I agree about the militia brigade, but I was thinking about bladensburg

Second rate would be almost any unit of regulars that wasn't part of the original army.....which was actually quite good well trained and had pleny of experience. Most of these troops were spread thin in forts out on the Frontier at the war started, but some were grouped back together as things progressed. Later in the war, some of the new regiments behaved well (Winfield Scott's brigade etc.) and shouldn't be second class either.

Why would the exception be New Orleans? The 7th Infantry was a damn good unit.

Both Jackson and Harrison always had some mounted infantry throughout their campaigns. Not cavalry in a true sense, but used like light Dragoons in a pinch.
The U.S. Regular Light Dragoons, especially the 1st and 2nd regiments, along with the first three regiments of Infantry and the rifle regiment were far and away the best units in the army. They were at least the equal of any British unit in Canada at the time. It wasn't there fault they were badly led for the most part. I don't see how they could be rated anything lower than regular

Mostly I can only speak to the East list as that is where I am focussing. There I think you need volunteer cavalry - I wouldn't rate them as light dragoons ever as there was never enough of it (same issue for the British too).

I don't think you ever want 2 cavalry for the Americans so I would drop it from the Militia brigade.

Which units would you consider second rate? My lists were based on the opinion that they are all second rate in 1812-1813 and regulars in 1814-1815 (the exception being New Orleans).

This is sort of a rough draft "East" would cover all the fighting along the border of Canada....South & West would cover the rest....."East" would give you a more conventional army while "South & West" should be a lot of decent, fast moving good shootin' troops that wouldn't necessarily stand up to a bayonet charge by the imperial guard, but could harass the he'll out of it or shoot it to pieces before it could get close

Of course I'd still have to do ratings etc. so if you have any opinions on that let me know.....I think the volunteers and riflemen were probably the best shots in the world at that time. Just reading about they toll they took on Brit officers when they were well deployed is telling. Even the 95th would have trouble matching their shooting.....of course the 95th was perhaps the finest infantry in the world, but they (the 95th) could do so much more. Point is, U.S. Rifle armed troops should have something special they can do for their shooting, like if a unit takes a certain number of hits by them, it could be paralyzed for a turn or two while it sorts out it's command structure

Core Units

East 
2 Regulars
4 2nd Class Regulars
1 Rifles 
Medium Artillery
(1 Regulars)
(1 Second Class Regulars)

South & West 
1 Regulars
4 Volunteers
1 Rifles
1 Volunteer Rifles
Light Artillery
(1 Regulars)
(1 Volunteers)

Options 

Volunteer Brigade (South & West Only)
3 Volunteers
1 Volunteer Rifle
1 Volunteer Cavalry
Regular Brigade (East Only)
3 Regulars 
1 Light Dragoons

2nd Rate Regular Brigade (East Only)
6 Second Rate Regulars 

Militia 
6 Militia 
1 Militia Cavalry 

I had to take a course on this war for my BA and read volumes on it. I'm no expert, but I know enough...

I don't think just "militia" and "regulars" cuts it.....you should have "militia," (bad troops that run at the first sign of trouble) "volunteers" (good militia like Jackson and Harrison had or well equipped militia like the new Orleans militia units), "second rate regulars," (hastily organized regular regiments) "first rate regulars," (marines and good U.S. Infantry units)...... "rifles" (US rifle regiments, which should also be able to stand and fight as formed troops in the open as well as skirmish) and then "volunteer rifles" (like Jackson and Harrison had)......for cavalry, you should have "Light Dragoons" or "Volunteer Cavalry," both of which should be able to dismount and fight on foot.

I kept all my books and would be more than happy to draw up a little US list if it gives us something official....gimme about a week

I would recommend digging out the post that Cam did for point systems for the AB. It is a great tool for designing AB for other theaters of war. I am using it to design the AB for South American War of Independence ( I'll post the updated version soon ).

cheers
Francisco

No question - I meant more that a battalion in 1812 was 3-4 companies which fits in fine with Lasalle.

Comming back to making a list
The war was conducted in three theatres of operations:

1.The Atlantic Ocean, East Coast.
2.The Great Lakes and the Canadian frontier
3.The Southern States

In making a serious list you would have to have to it divided up into these 3 theatres because there were quite different time periods and units involved and gives you more choice.

"""TodCreasey said Each unit is a battalion of roughly 3 companies - i.e. pretty much standard Lasalle scale.""

Oh I'm doing 6 to 7 company average for Waterloo (Europe )if you look at the Hougoumont thread)which is based on serveral orders of battles.

But I agree with 2-3 companies for the War of 1812 will let you have seperate indian units, militia and fencibles units and is a good unit scale for America but I think its quite different average size to europe lasalles.

Cheers.

I'll be putting on a game at Cold Wars if you are interested in trying out 1812 Lasalle.

Um just a thought outside the square. Because there was a lot of small battles and militia and smaller Indian units. make the core list on a large brigade and the other choices battalion if you know what I mean. Eg Allies 1 battalion of Brunswickers Organic 1 battalion of Iroqouis

cheers

Hi is there still any interest in this period? Last post was 7 months ago :-(

I'm definitely interested in putting together a Canadian/British army 1813 for Niagara/Battle of Thames along with their Indian allies (Shawnee, Delaware, Iroqouis etc.)

I'm interested in seeing any current lists.

Thanks

That is why I did the militia and regular division. The militia division is generally early war.

However New Orleans would be a militia list so I couldn't call it early war as a result.

I'll have to take a look at it. Would it be worth it to break down the North American Theater into early war and late war? Makes a difference for the regulars I think.

Each unit is a battalion of roughly 3 companies - i.e. pretty much standard Lasalle scale.

Great start!

How many men (roughly) does a unit in this lists represent?

Ok here is my first crack at the Americans. I'll do a British list eventually but I have some painting to do first!

http://sites.google.com/site/honourscenarios/army-list-united-states

Awesome! I am looking forward to trying these out.

I have started scenarios for most everything I thought was a good size for Lasalle on the wiki (see http://sites.google.com/site/honourscenarios/home) and I have some pretty clear ideas on the army lists for both the US and British/Empire forces that I was going to put up for discussion over the next few days.

I am by no means an expert so I would love some collaborators.

I haven't started anything, but if people are interested we could start a discussion on how to approach it. I'm not an expert in this period by any stretch so perhaps someone who is smarted than I could get the ball rolling ;)

I have a nice collection of 15mm American War of 1812 figures so I'm eager to see some official Army Lists for the Americans and British in North America.

I'm still cutting my teeth on Lasalle, but I can give it a go at making Army Lists, or help others interested in creating one. And if you have already started, lets share.

I am very interested in using Lasalle for gaming the War of 1812. I am sure if some of us put our heads together we could come up with the lists

Oh goody more work for me to do.

Just kidding, I've actually been giving this some thought as I slowly paint up my Brits.
Plenty of info on all combatants and just a matter of converting units into LaSalle stats. Indian/Aboriginal forces might be hard to do, perhaps considered Irregulars.