I have glanced over this thread.. I would stick to 1 core and one support for the early tourneys.. Need to get new blood into the mix.. And do not want to scare off folks with too many figs... Give it a year, then you can do the multi-list deal. That is just my 2 cents. Crottin.. I would think the points would be figured on your army points... army morale.:-)

One question has occurred to me : for the victory points, are losses determined by raw units, or with the weighting factors for army morale?

i.e. does an artillery battery count the same as a Large (6 stand) unit or does the artilley battery count for one 'point' and the infantry unit count for 3 in the same way as army morale?

I can see the 'pick one of two' as logical : your overall commander has assigned you addditional forces based on what he's ordered you to do.

The main problem with using core +2 for the last game, at least in my case, is I, for one, don't have the extra brigade.

I'm having to borrow and proxy to get Core + 1 brigade as it is, and have been painting frantically to even get that far.

I like the idea of picking one of your two, how about for the last game you use all three?

[ The counter argument is if you are going to bring 2 brigades anyway u may as well play Core+2 straight up... ]

That increases game length, though, which may be a problem for a Tourney.

Changes the character of the comp I guess. It then makes it the best attacking army vs the best defending combination. Would perhaps stop the necessity to take the (IMO) almost compulsory Pursuit Cav option i.e. if the defender decides not to take pursuit cav then the attacker is not compelled to and can take a more direct assault combo (another inf or Hvy Cav) The downside is that it penalises new players with fewer troops and increases the barriers to entry (my guys here are scrambling to field Core+1)....but I like the added variety it would bring.... The counter argument is if you are going to bring 2 brigades anyway u may as well play Core+2 straight up.....We plan to play 3.5 hrs on Sat so will be interested how far along games will get ...a playetest on Tue we got to 14 turns....and I knew what I was doing.

<Incidently I know why Russians would take arty support...2 batteries zeroed in on one unit can destroy it in 2 turns...learnt a lesson there...keep moving to survive>

[ Seems to me there would be quite a bit of difference in the game between using a fixed army list versus choosing your support after you know your opponent's army, the core terrain, the weather, who is attacking and where you are in a comp. ]

I was thinking, actually, that the player would have to declare his army list before the tournament, along with his two possible support brigades. For instance:

Core: French Empire

Support: Polish Cavalry Brigade OR (French) Infantry Brigade.

Then, after seeing the board and the nationality of your opponent, you could decide which partner you wanted to bring to the dance.

There would be no obligation to choose two. You could simply declare your supporting brigade, period.

Bear in mind I'm just brainstorming like the rest of you: I'm not trying to set Tournament Rules here!

Sam - was allowing choice of support something you were thinking when designing the army lists for possible comps?

Seems to me there would be quite a bit of difference in the game between using a fixed army list versus choosing your support after you know your opponent's army, the core terrain, the weather, who is attacking and where you are in a comp.

Has anyone been doing this in their pickup games - how does it go?

Certainly one advantage would be to provide more variety in the armies being used. Under Zel's victory conditions (attacker loses unless they win) for instance it is hard to see why Russians would ever choose artillery support. With the pursuit victory conditions in the book, some support choices do not seem to be optimal to use.

But the downside is it drives up the figure count and makes it harder for newbies to get into the comp scene.

For me locally, Lasalle is still very much in the infant stage - there is interest but few armies. I have painted two armies so I can offer the game to anyone interested. I have used a low figure count (16 figure battalions) to try to get people to see that with about 100-150 inf, 30 cav and 8 guns you have a full Lasalle army. Doubt if we actually do get comps going I would want players to need 2 support choices - need to wait till we have enough grognards.

Cam

Step 4c seems potentially contentious. Rather, you could let players come to the tournament with a Core list and a choice of up to two support brigades... but they can ultimately only use one on the table.

For example, if I'm a Russian player I normally want to Defend, so maybe my support choice is gobs of artillery.

But if I get stuck being the Attacker, I'll put out my alternate support choice, which is Cavalry.

you are assigned a table that will resemble the ones in the book

Looking at the set up list, I see there was no roll for board step - are you using fixed terrain?

Cam

Incidently we will be trialling the following House Rule:
“Any army reduced to 50% or below makes its army morale check with one less dice.”

<NB this is to encourage the seemingly winning side to continue its attack rather than break off and await the inevitable break given we are playing to time rather than a random turn end>

I'll Be interested if it makes any difference

Look forward to seeing the results.

Do you intend to ask players to record any data about their games?

Ideally (= probably totally impractically) I would be really interested to see the results broken down by:

Army used
Attacker v Defender
Table used
Weather
Organic v Reserve support used
Turn game ended
Turn Reserve support arrived
Officer characteristics
Whether players thought the scoring result was a "fair" reflection

Doubt one comp (particularly with modified victory conditions) will tell us much - but it may kick of a database that could be very interesting over time.

Cam

Agreed but I thought that is too close to 33%...I'll compile the results and see the spread and report...should get results of 12 odd games.

Incidently the system worked in a trial last nite... using Core+1 Russian Guards..I lost with Peninsula French 6-1 with him losing <20%..but no pursuit cav so would have scored 5-2...

25% would probably be easier to remember and calculate than 20%.

<…pls read below happy for any feedback from list…we are going to run with this on our Lasalle day here...I think the important step is rolling for the character of General AFTER they have been given commands ( so crap generals cant be given one insignificant unit and hidden at back)…however knowing u have a crap general can influence your setup >

Lasalle competition-style pre-game set-up

1) Find your opponent, and find your table.

2) Declare your army Nationality, Theatre and Core Division (but not yet your supporting Brigade(s) chosen)

3) Modify / choose / nominate by writing down any options that arise from you army builder special rules (for example, choosing Austrian grenze as Irregs.), or the main body of the rules (for example breaking up allowed units into extra skirmishers).

4a)Roll for weather Pg 87.

4b)Determine defender and attacker roles Pg 87.

4c) Modify / choose / nominate by writing down any options that arise from your army builder as a result of now being attacker or defender.

4d) Inform the opponent of any special optional or army-builder rules or victory conditions that now apply because you are the attacker or defender.

4e) Organise your army into commands under officers.

4f) Dice for officers' characteristics. Pg 72 + each army builder….declare the general
Players should note both their own and their opponents.

4g) choose who sets up first and who chooses table side THEN set extra terrain. Pg 90.
(Discuss with your opponent the nature of any features you're not sure of)

4h) Set objective marker Pg91,.

4i) Set up armies including any obstacles, declare your troops and supporting brigade if now on-table (define reserves as they arrive).

5) Play each turn until victory (Pg66-67) or time is exhausted. Attacker moves first.
(Agree with your opponent on some method to note the passage of game turns.)
Calculate game victory points (see below)and inform the umpire.

When Time is called finish the current Turn (if relevant…recall any attack this turn wont be resolved as there is no next turn) esp any Army Morale Checks.

SUM7 Victory conditions

If the attacker solely controls the objective or the defender has broken (as per the book) then the attacker is the winner, otherwise the Defender wins..consult the VP chart below

Winner Loser
6.........1......Loser inflict <20.1% loses on winner
5.........2......Loser inflicts >20% losses on winner
4.........3......Loser inflicts >=33% losses on winner
• If you win but the loser has more pursuit cav than you then downgrade your victory by one level to a minimum of 4-3 …
• Guards must win or are automatic 1-6 losers