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1. cam_millar
   Member

   I have posted a proposed AB-compatible army list to the scenario wiki for the 2nd Netherland Division at Waterloo.

   http://sites.google.com/site/honourscenarios/ab-army-list---2nd-netherlands-division-waterloo

   This is a companion the Quatre Bras list I previously posted.

   The core Waterloo list is similar to the Quatre Bras list (although this one is based on Saxe-Weimar's troops fighting around Papelotte). The main differences are support choices. As well as organic British and Hanoverian infantry, you get Reserve British Light Cavalry, Reserve Prussian Infantry or Reserve Prussian Light Cavalry.

   My main interest is to show how more and diverse army lists can be constructed by looking at real OOBs and battles, and using the ratings in the book. I claim no particular knowledge on the army.

   If you have Dutch Belgian troops you can plausibly combine them with Britsh Guard infantry, Dutch light cavalry, British, Hanoverian or Brunswick infantry, Prussian infantry or Prussian cavalry. By having two lists, rather than a generic one, we can limit the support options (so you can't get both British Guard and Prussian Cavalry for instance).

   Unit ratings, where available, are from the book. I ain't changing them.

   Hopefully there is someone somewhere with a Dutch Belgian army desperate for some AB style games. Any feedback is appreciated.

   Cam

   Posted 1 year ago #

2. Evan
   Member

   It's a good start Cam. I would like to know why the British Lt cav is mentioned when the British Heavies were the closest in action to the 2nd Neth. Div. There is a missing Dutch militia battalion and maybe it could be better to have only two of the 2nd Nassau regt. battalions as one was off helping defend Hougemont a Nassau based brigade and a D/B based brigade. It's interesting to not that after QB Merlens lt cav brigade was split up with one each to Trip and Ghigny - maybe one of those as a support instead of the British lt cav brigade?

   Evan

   Posted 1 year ago #

3. cam_millar
   Member

   Good questions.

   I based the cavalry support on the dispostions in the morning, with Vivian and Vandeleur shown positioned on the Chemin D'Ohain road behind Saxe Weimar's position (although they wandered off to the centre later). Given the Dutch cavalry was some way from Papelotte, I did not bother providing that option.

   If I had used Bylandt's "Target Practice for the French Artillery" brigade as the base for the army, I could have chosen to use British Heavy Cavalry support. But adding Prussian support would then be harder to justify. I certainly did not want a list that allowed the Dutch every possible British and Prussian support option. Allowing Dutch some Prussian Reserves just seems more fun.

   There is a missing militia (the 8th) which was dropped to keep the army to what I think is an AB sized list - this is not a listing of the entire Division at Waterloo, but an attempt to construct an AB-compatible list.

   It would be possible to switch the small Nassau unit for the 8th Militia, although it does weaken the list a little. (The book I based it on merely said "some Nassauers" defended Hougoumont, so I was not sure which unit it was. Being a British history, it goes on in detail to list all the British companies in the garrison, then mentions a few "others" were there as well.)

   Cam

   Posted 1 year ago #

4. Evan
   Member

   I have a copy of Adkins "Waterloo" which is an excellent guide for the battle. The entire 1/2 Nassau was sent off early in the battle to help defend Hougoumont. The other two battalions of the /2 Nassau were the divisional reserve. The Prussian entry into the battle was rather late in the day (chronologically wise - not meaning to start a flame war here!)so any support options for the 2nd Neth. should really mostly be the British/KGL/Han. or Neth. cavalry & artillery to my mind. Where in NZ are you?

   Posted 1 year ago #

5. cam_millar
   Member

   In Auckland.

   No risk of flame war - the worse thing I can think of is nobody looks at the list.

   My view of AB style lists is they should give a "flavour" of the army and add some variety - it is not a list designed to refight the specific battle (others can do that if they want).

   The idea is that the Dutch could have been fighting with various troops at different times in the day - with British Infantry at any time, British Light Cavalry early-ish in the day, or Prussians late in the day. If you want to think chronologically, the Dutch-Prussian combo might reflect a game starting at about 6pm - the Dutch are fighting alone hoping for Prussian support to arrive in a few hours time.

   If you take a literal reading of AB lists, then you could argue that the Hundred Days French Guard should not get Old Guard support - since the the Old Guard were in battle "rather late in the day" as well.

   The other objective was not to allow every possible support choice and create an uber army. Since the Quatre Bras list provided Dutch cavalry support (and Guards), I find adding possible Prussian support more appealing.

   There are two headaches with removing the Nassau battalion - I think it makes the list too small to be fair, and it means including all of Bylandt's troops (which complicates the support choices - it is easier to think in terms of support to Saxe Weimar's position rather than to half the battlefield covered by the Dutch in the morning). Will add a note saying that the Nassau troops are included for play-balancing and were not really there.

   Cam

   Posted 1 year ago #

6. Evan
   Member

   Hi Cam, I'm all for "what if" style lists but I think they need to start with a more plausable or historical list first. For those interested in creating a D/B army, like myself, I'd rather start with an army entirely from the same country and have add on options like British or Prussian brigades. I don't think having the majority of options as Prussian adds to the Dutch/Belgian flavour in the main - that makes the creation of a D/B army as more a Prussian one and it's not somewhere I'd like to go.I want to have a reason to collect & use all those lovely D/B Perry figures including the cavalry.

   Evan

   Posted 1 year ago #

7. cam_millar
   Member

   Not sure I follow.

   The lists take the historic OOBs at Quatre Bras and Waterloo, and the ratings in the book, and then try to derive plausible AB lists.

   The main problem is that, given the quality of the troops in the rulebook, all the DB troops available just don't generate a very big army.

   Once you have created a core force that seems "equivalent" to other AB lists, you don't have many units left over to create support options. The DB cavalry is a pretty weak force in itself. I could not see any way to boost the DB army other than give them British and/or Prussian support options.

   You could upgrade the quality of DB troops to be the same as British, which would make the core force smaller, and so provide more DB support choices. But I ain't going there.

   You could add DB cavalry to the Waterloo list, but I wanted to have a difference between the QB and Waterloo lists. If you want DB infantry + DB cavalry, then use the Quatre Bras list. Waterloo provides a variant to the Quatre Bras list (with what I think is a fun but plausible option of adding some Prussian support).

   You could create an army with just DB troops. But this has the same problem that DB cavalry ally list in the rulebook has - it is pretty weak compared to other support choices.

   Any other ideas for how to add more DB support choices in a plausible or historic way?

   Cam

   Posted 1 year ago #

8. Evan
   Member

   There was an entire division of D/B cavalry, 3 brigades of 7 regts, 3 heavy & 4 light. More artillery in the 2nd D/B div. than an equvalent British sized formation with 10 battalions of infantry, not to mention the reserve Nassau brigade. There's plenty to make up an entire D/B army and not need any allied options. Having said that there's no reason why British(including KGL & Hanovarian units of course) couldn't be used as options for those who want to. The Prussians are most definately a "what if" option. Part of the flavour of the period is in the actual armies to be collected & painted/modelled, not just within the game itself.

   Posted 1 year ago #

9. cam_millar
   Member

   Not sure why you think Prussian support is a 'what if'. Maps of dispositions late in the day show Prussian cavalry and infantry around Saxe-Weimar's position. Seems entirely plausible that DB and Prussian forces could have fought together.

   To me this is the heart of Sam's "moment of battle" - a core force can get support from troops in an entirely different Corp or Army at some stage in a battle.

   Certainly Prussian support seems to me more plausible than, say, DB infantry support. The core list takes up nearly all of 2nd Division, and the 1st and 3rd Divisions were never close to them during the battle.

   DB cavalry should probably be added as a support choice. I wanted this list to be different from the Quatre Bras list - but allowing an all DB army would be worthwhile.

   I encourage you to post an alternative army list. Perhaps you could do a list based on a DB Army Corp where all the DB infantry divisions and DB cavalry brigades fight together. For me that is more 'what if' than lists based on specific DB formations in specific actions (I don't think the DB ever fought together as a Corp or close together in an action?), but that may be much more what DB players want.

   Over time, players then might want to move from a generic list to battle-specific ones that provide some alternative options (like British Guard or Prussian cavalry) but added constraints.

   Cam

   Posted 1 year ago #

10. Evan
    Member

    i would love to post a list but until my invite to join the wiki arrives it's in a waiting pattern.
    The Prussians arriving in the evening didn't fight alongside the 2nd D/B division anyway, the junction of the two forces was marked by friendly fire incidents as both mistook each other for the French, so it should remain a "what if" situation. Also Bylandts brigade wasn't exposed to the French guns all day before running away as common historical myth has it (read British authors, in fact they fought off several French infantry assaults later in the day. They were pulled back behind the ridge, by mid day, to allow the British artillery to pound the advancing French and only their skirmishers remained in front.

    Posted 1 year ago #

11. cam_millar
    Member

    I never got an invite of any kind saying I had access. I just found when I got my google id, I automatically could edit the wiki. Maybe you already have access too?

    I am interested to see your list.

    My main fear with Lasalle is that once the initial enthusiasm wears off, a steady diet of the same few army lists fighting each other is going to get boring fast. I have French in Bicornes - I have exactly one core list and (from memory) 6 support options. I can imagine exhausting that pretty fast.

    I think small short games are better than adding more support choices (although that is an option), so I want more army lists that give me (and my opponent) variety and surprise. I also would like more personality in the lists. It does not matter if I call my core French battalion the 1st, 57th or 111th - they are all the same anyway.

    That is why I looked for things like Prussian or British Guard support for the DB's. They are quirky. But it adds variety and personality. Otherwise I can see a generic DB list giving the same limited choices like I get for Conquest French, which could pall after a while.

    Cam

    ps - don't mention friendly fire otherwise someone will want to add a special rule ...

    Posted 1 year ago #

12. Evan
    Member

    Once our group of gamers got used to the rules with only the core army and one support choice we've since moved onto using both organic and reserve choices each game. We've found that the games don't really take any longer with the added brigades but do add to the enjoyment. Bigger is better for us so far and we intend to try out a really big, multi army/player game in the not too distant future.I also think nothing kills enthusiasm quicker than limiting the choice of models that can be used.
    Creating a solely D/B army list based on Waterloo with options (allied brigades) to create a QB biased force, or even for the original Waterloo army as well, would give the extra flavour. Prussian support options would necessarily be part of the Waterloo list as reserves only to reflect their later arrival IMHO.

    That way you could create a D/B army solely composed of D/B/Nass. Then modify by adding allied brigades, either British/KGL/Han./Brun. for both Waterloo and QB, then also the possibility of Prussian reserves for a total of at least 4 different variations with the original army list.

    Evan
    p.s. I promise I'll not mention it again!

    Posted 1 year ago #

13. cam_millar
    Member

    I will be interested to see how your list differs from mine, and how you scale your core list to be AB-compatible.

    I'd had the impression you were not convinced about Prussian reserve support - but looks like you would include them now?

    Cam

    Posted 1 year ago #

14. Evan
    Member

    I didn't have any problem with including them, just not as the only option.

    Evan

    Posted 1 year ago #

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