Honour Forums

Discuss the Honour system.

1. Peoples_Republic
   Member

   Hi

   ""At Waterloo the size of troops varied. The English historians always emphasize how the British battalions were understrength. This is correct. But this is not the whole picture. Although understrength, the British battalion was much stronger formation. than Prussian or French battalion.

   Average battalion at Waterloo:
   - 640 men / Wellington's infantry (British - 665 men, KGL - 520 men, Hannoverian - ?)
   - 610 men / Blucher's infantry
   - only 520 men / Napoleon's infantry

   The largest battalion on the battlefield was British I/52nd Regiment of Foot, 1,130 men !
   The smallest battalion was French III/108th Line Regiment, 251 men. The battalions of British Foot Guard averaged approx. 1,000 men, the strength of French regiment.( 2 Battallions )

   The strongest squadrons on the battlefield were also Wellington's squadrons.
   Average squadron at Waterloo:
   - 145 men / Wellington's cavalry
   - 135 men / Napoleon's cavalry
   - 115 men / Blucher's cavalry ""

   I'm problably asking this question of Sam. I'm sorry if this has been covered. And I know this is a problem of most battalion level games that dont have single bases. But when you make scenarios up and you know the strengths of the battalions. For example The largest battalion on the battlefield was British I/52nd Regiment of Foot, 1,130 men !
   The smallest battalion was French III/108th Line Regiment, 251 men.
   Is there a general rule of thumb ?. Like if you say the average battalion is 600 men and over 750 men is a large battalion. but battalions could be with casaulties from a previous battle as low as 250 - 300 men.
   But in the game they will be equal with a battallion of 650 men. but the average strength battalion of 650 would of out numbered that battalion over 2 - 1 in reality but doesn't in the game. Also a over 900-1200 man battalion is over 2 - 1 bigger than a 450 - 650 average roughly. when you look at Landwher units it gets worse. When we are making scenario's up and sharing them it would be good to be on the same page.
   At the moment I'm doing;

   under 400 men: You start with a disorder marker that can't be removed.
   greater than 400-700 men: the normal average size of 4 stands
   greater than 700-950 men: the + size of six stands.
   greater than 950-well over a 1000 men : I making them into 2 battalions that are under the same comand that have to stay together.

   When the strengths are borderline or marginal to the next size. I try to look how that unit did historically in the battle. and put the strength size up or down accordinately.

   Sam's just wondering what your thought are on this and what you do ?

   Cheers,

   Posted 1 year ago #

2. vilcum
   Member

   I am sure you will benefit from a re-read of page 12 on the rulebook and its guidelines about Infantry units representation.

   An excerpt:
   "The vast majority of infantry units in Lasalle should be “Small,” four-base units. This represents somewhere between @500-700 men.
   In exceptional cases, such as large Austrian units or some elite British battalions, one could play with “Large” infantry units, representing
   somewhere between @800-1000 men.
   In cases where the historical record indicates vastly understrength battalions, it would be wise to combine them into a single unit."

   Posted 1 year ago #

3. Peoples_Republic
   Member

   You might benefit from a re - read of my post.
   "I'm problably asking this question of Sam. I'm sorry if this has been covered."

   I understand about 6+ large division. Ive named it there. but I just think at the bottom and high end of the scale under the book system there is to much rounding off. Some units are gaining or losing up to 300 men. And sometimes not alot, losing a unit can cause problems in small games scenarios.In forts and fortified positions.

   Cheers

   Posted 1 year ago #

4. vilcum
   Member

   Don´t take as an offense, only trying to point you the "in-the-book" designer explanation.

   Maybe my mistake was thinking this was an open forum post, not an "ask Sam" feature.

   Posted 1 year ago #

5. Peoples_Republic
   Member

   vilcum
   Well u do come across as being smart to be brutally honest. Even this comment

   ""Maybe my mistake was thinking this was an open forum post, not an "ask Sam""

   But perhaps I didn't ask the right question.

   For A hougoumont scenario the 2 guards have over a 1000 men each. they send there light companies into hougoumont and the line companies hang back in the british line in reserve. I feel an average size battalion is 500-600 men I feel the 6 stands are = to 850 -900 is 6+ stands or 1 and half battalions but over 1000 men are more = 8 stands or 2 battalions. In the case of the cold stream guards One battalion can be line infantry and the other can be Light infantry. This will help because the British need more battalions to help with the historic result. But I think on the wargames table that is going to be hard to achieve.
   Anyway I was going to ask Sam what he thought about making a large battalion into 2 and if he could see any problem with it. I was just explaining my system. Is that so bad vilcum ?
   Is it against the law to ask indivaul people questions on a forum ?

   Anyway cheers

   Posted 1 year ago #

6. marcoshape
   Member

   I am quite new to this forum but I am member of several similar forums.
   It just does not give a nice image of the group to see members arguing because of misunderstanding and some level of rudeness used in the written language.
   I am sure our intentions are good and for the benefit of everybody here to enjoy even more this game...right?
   I do not think anybody is the keeper of the truth, probably not even Sam, but he is the final arbiter and positve dicussions, I am sure will also help him considering new possibilities and point of view.
   That said let's go back to the topic on hand!
   Peoples_Republic, I basically have the same question that I expressed in one of my previous posts titled "Sample conversion from OOB".
   Basically I want to create a scenario on the fights over Telnits, opening phase of the battle of Austerlitz.
   In the OOB some French btn are listed 1500 strong, what do we do with those?
   In my post I have suggested a possible conversion and I am just asking for comments.
   Everybody's comments are welcome of course, but ... Sam comments will feel like Nutella on a slice of bread! ;) :)

   Thanks

   Posted 1 year ago #

7. seldon
   Member

   Well, I've faced similar issues when adjusting the OOB for my South American War of independence and in general I've used the guidelines that Sam uses in the book.

   For example if full cavalry regiment is at full strength I go for the two small units, but if it is a little under strength I go for the one large unit.

   For the infantry if I have one of those really understrengthed battalions I try to combine it with another or if it they are lights then I just add sk bases.

   I liked your idea of if there is a particularly large battalion of infantry breaking it up in two small ones in the same command, though I don't have any of such. The idea of having one with a permanent disruption is original but for my taste it would be too picky ( just a question of taste), I will keep a 300-350 strength unit as a 4 base unit.
   In many of the cases I look at there were small one squadron cavalry units, I tend to group 2 or three of those into small cavalry units.
   But the initial disruption is an original idea and I am going to capture it for historical scenarios when one army is caught by surprise or in disarray...
   Because of things like this I've started liking "base" based systems like LaSalle more and more over traditional figure scale systems.

   So I appreciate your post, to me it is interesting to see how other people are using the system to represent different cases.

   (I think vilcum meant well, sometimes what we right sounds different than how other people read it :) )

   cheers,
   Francisco

   Posted 1 year ago #

8. Sam Mustafa
   Le Grand Fromage

   If I understand the original suggestion correctly, the only change being suggested is that very small BNs (under 400 men) be represented by a special "permanent" DISR marker? Otherwise, all the other suggestions appear to be covered by the rulebook.

   My preference, obviously, would be to combine such understrength units into a single "Large" unit, as explained on page 12.

   Creating a special "understrength" category of unit raises some questions about things like firepower and frontage.

   Posted 1 year ago #

9. Peoples_Republic
   Member

   ""If I understand the original suggestion correctly, the only change being suggested is that very small BNs (under 400 men) be represented by a special "permanent" DISR marker? Otherwise, all the other suggestions appear to be covered by the rulebook.""

   No I'm more concerned with splitting over 1000 battalions into 2 normal sized battalions and if it would have any bad effects on the rules.

   Not as concerned as I would be.If I was in the front line of a 450 man battalion facing a 750 man battalion with a overlap lol.
   ""My preference, obviously, would be to combine such understrength units into a single "Large" unit, as explained on page 12.""

   Yes obviously, Silly of me to bring it up lol.

   Seldon said "For the infantry if I have one of those really understrengthed battalions I try to combine it with another or if it they are lights then I just add sk bases."

   Never thought of that adding sk bases Thats a good idea.

   Yes marcoshape it doesn't seem right to make a 1500 man french battalion just 6+

   Cheers,

   Posted 1 year ago #

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