Honour Forums

Discuss the Honour system.

1. pptheos
   Member

   Hi all.
   I am very new to the game and I am trying to figure out how things work out.

   Lately we played a game of Lasalle using two standard army lists (i.e from the book) with one support option.
   I played with a French infantry division including (6 infanty and 1 foot artillery) plus (2 Hussars, 2 Chasseur a cheval and 1 horse artillery). I was the defender.

   My opponent was the attacker with a Russian Guard division having more and better artillery, more and better infantry (+2 for higher esprit, +2 for being Guard) and very powerfull large units of guard cavalry.

   It seemed to me that the only way to win was to save my pursuit cavalry from destruction long enough (until I lose). i.e try to loose early enough, so that I can take a marginal victory due to the "send in the guards" special rule.
   Nevertheless, as this is no fun at all, I tryed to play to win and of course I was obliterated by my opponent who had more and superior units.

   If we had played with two support options things would have been worse as my opponent would be able to take cosak (pursuit) cavalry, so not even the "send in the guards" special rule would be enough to save me.

   From other rule sets that I have played (DBM, FoG, FoW) I am used to the idea of "balanced" lists: all of the troops add up to the same number of points so that elite troops are fewer and lower quality troops give more volume to the army.
   Here, it seems that this is not the case.

   I would like to give another example.
   I have painted French and British forces so I was comparing the two lists for the Hundred days period.

   They both wave exactly the same core infantry units (same amount, esprit, skirmish values etc.)
   The British have fewer guns per artillery unit.
   The British cannot have organic cavalry
   Why should one pick the British list? (except for modelling/uniforms reasons)

   Posted 1 year ago #

2. vilcum
   Member

   They are supposed to be, but I borrowed from the rulebook this sentence .."No lists or points system can address the most fundamental question about game balance: your own playing style."

   For the english vs french example the french superiority of one gun and posible light horse support can be argably countered by the british "The British may use a Superior Commander in either theatre."

   Posted 1 year ago #

3. pptheos
   Member

   Regardless of "playing style", all gamers play to win.
   So starting the game with even chances seems resonable to me.

   Take for example two guys that have spent the last year painting their armies and they finally come to the club for a tourney.
   The one is defending with a British Infantry Division (no organic Cav).
   The other is attacking with a Russian Guard Division with organic guard cavalry.
   Regardless of "playing style" just compare the stats...

   Posted 1 year ago #

4. vilcum
   Member

   Strangely as it sound not all players game to win, but you are right that most of players like having paired chance in winning.

   Looking at your exanmple, I would take the russians, because I love attacks, but in a tournament my bets would be with the english, why?

   -Send in the Guards : The russian MUST rout the english AND eliminate ALL his pursuit cavalry (with yout chosen support his pursuit factor is 2)) or LOSE, no draw here.

   - British ar SK2 vs russian SK1, that is one extra die in each unit firing.

   - Russian subcomanders have a 33% having vigor -1 or negative tactics, with three subcomanders you can count with one of them being a numbskull
   British on the oposite have 33% of being positive at tactics: So I would be reasonably hiy at 4+ in expecting TWO close combat each turn.

   - The British comander -being superior- will choose every turn the order in which assaults must be resolved

   - I would take a light cav brigade as the british, thats 4 units that the enemy must eliminate or Lose directly ,so they will sit in second line and be used in counterattacks.

   Russians are bound to attack in british chosen terrain (lovely walls anyone?) against an enemy who most surely will put a pair of DISR on their units in the approach and have good posibilities of countercharging, probably hitting half (as opposed to 33%) of the dices in key assault chosen by his commander...

   Call me optimist but I do not see the battle so one sided...

   Posted 1 year ago #

5. cam_millar
   Member

   The rules lawyer in me says that Russian Guard + Guard cavalry are toast in a play-to-win competition. I would like to think I would not be me, but you know the Russians will run into a scumbag who will play to lose:

   They will not guard the objective marker
   they will deploy their infantry facing BACKWARDS to help your make rear attacks
   They will change formation to march column if you charge their infantry, and never form square if you attack them with cavalry.
   They will park their infantry in march column in front of your batteries (preferably in front of both your 2 5-gun batteries throwing 10 dice each, with bouncethrough to the next march column unit).
   They will never rally anybody
   They will use walls to create a fort for one cavalry unit, with other units being placed as speedbumps to protect them.

   Would I do these things - of course not. No way. Never. Ok, maybe I might forget the odd rally, maybe use a walled pen for my cavalry to hide in, and make the odd error carelessly placing infantry in front of Russian artillery...

   Cam

   Posted 1 year ago #

6. Prinny
   Member

   Ahh but Cam if you did that I dont have to fire, id just send all of my army after your cav, and then start working on your foot troops.

   Or more likely rush my cav up, and let you have no where to deploy your light dragoons, since they are not on the table they cant give you any help with the end of game so Russians win.

   My money would be on the Russians to win that.... As for british commanders well Cam knows how I roll those :( sigh

   Posted 1 year ago #

7. pptheos
   Member

   OK, I told you I'm new to the game and I am just trying to figure out how things are.

   It is just that I am not used to the idea of the "send in the guards" rule.
   In previous games that I have played, If you build an army with high quality elite troops then you have a small army. Your opponent may have quantity over quality.

   Here, you have elite troops in great numbers. Playing with the Guards list, you can smash your opponent, but you can't win! The other guy must loose fast in order to win.
   Is this fun for either one?

   Posted 1 year ago #

8. Prinny
   Member

   Not at all,

   The guards have to smash the other army, but most importantly they have to smash the other armies cav.

   Send in the guards is to show that this is the most important roll of the dice for the commander, your troops have to break the back of the army you are against to win the day.

   Plus if your playing guard you have the best uniforms so yer thats fun too.....

   Posted 1 year ago #

9. vilcum
   Member

   <<Is this fun for either one?

   Well...I think that match will be VERY fun if russian player like attack and british is a defensive match fan (an italian soccer "tifosi" would love that way).

   ...Given they are not the kind of people masterly described by Cam and Prinny of course ;-)

   <<In previous games that I have played, If you build an army with high quality elite <<troops then you have a small army

   Flames of War anyone? It is a different approach, personally I like quite a lot the idea after lasalle AB rules as it allows using quite historical and similar-size forces so we dont require the guards committing only a brigade against three spaniards divisions to find an equilibrium.

   Posted 1 year ago #

10. cam_millar
    Member

    "... let you have no where to deploy your light dragoons, since they are not on the table they cant give you any help with the end of game so Russians win."

    No, just means we would have an argument about whether Reserve Cavalry that has not come on the table yet counts for "...pursuit cavalry remaining".

    "My money would be on the Russians to win that..."

    Yeah but you have been using British with Heavy Dragoons in Lasalle - you start to see the glass as being half empty after a while.

    Cam

    Posted 1 year ago #

11. Peoples_Republic
    Member

    Hi,
    cheer up man theres always the luck of the dice to give us hope.

    ""It seemed to me that the only way to win was to save my pursuit cavalry from destruction long enough (until I lose). i.e try to loose early enough, so that I can take a marginal victory due to the "send in the guards" special rule.
    Nevertheless, as this is no fun at all, I tryed to play to win and of course I was obliterated by my opponent who had more and superior units.""

    IF someone is going to be cheesy enough to take elite guard units with heavy cavalry why not win easily that way and milk the pursuit rule.Its a legitamite tactic to make someone think twice about doing that.I think it's clever tournament game design for this era. but if u think thats the best Army style go for french guards.
    But heres what i do.

    It sounds like u played into his hand and tried to attack him with weaker units. Did u use squares.

    I don't recommend purposely losing, but save your cavlary for the last attack.
    heres what I do against an elite force as I have french infantry.

    Form your infantry and arty as far a way from the enemy as possible in the best defensive terrien as possible making sure your guns have a clear shot.And try to wittle them down as much as possible with gun and canister fire. Trying to hold out as long as possible.
    Now theres 2 things u can do with your cavalry one has been mentioned in another post and that is to keep it behind the infantry gun line and attack what breaks through. You wont have casulaties on your cavlary but hopefully they will and the odds will be in your favour.youll have 5 cav units so u can out number them and destroy them quickly going on to the next weakest target.
    option 2
    Have the cavalry together on a flank and move behind the enemies guns and destroy them after that come behind his main attack and just attack isolated forces in the rear with the 4 cavalry keeping them together. As there is strength in numbers and there less likely to be destroyed easily or quickly therefore still having them for send in the guards.

    Dont move your calvary till hes commited himself to your main line.
    If you have really bad dice with the artillery and you infantry collaspes quickly u have send in the guards rule. You win. If u do have good luck and good timming chances are u could win.
    Anyway hopes this helps.

    Posted 1 year ago #

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