Hi Folks....have any of you any input on how to refight the attack on Hougomont (15mm) using the Lasalle rules?
so far the Brits have Cover and Higher elevation when defending the Larger type walls and for the buildings we are splitting it into zones. Any ideas welcome
Cheers Paul
Hi,
There's a very good map of hougoumont if u scroll down
http://www.britishbattles.com/waterloo/waterloo-june-1815.htm#Hougoumont_Chateau
But this is a very good sight
cheers
this is also very good it goes into detail of every attack on hougoumont.
http://www.napoleon-series.org/military/battles/c_hougoumont.html
Cheers ....any ideas on the gameplay:)...we will be Demoing it at the Leeds Fiasco wargames convention at the Royal Armouries UK....come and have a chat .cheers Paul
yes i do have ideas. heres a setup of Hougoumont.
http://generaldebrigade.13.forumer.com/viewtopic.php?t=2802
Picture 2 is from the british lines looking across to the french lines
What area scale do u want to do. what they have done which is the hole day and all the troops around as the british right flank zoning in on the chateau. Hougomont sucked in 14000 french infantry and cavalry.Which was great use to the british.Wellington had to keep the back clear to send in ammunition and later on the guard line infantry.
Or do the chateau and the wood covering a small table with nothing at the sides covering Jeromes division first attack.I think u could double the size of the chateau and wood even at 15mm.
And do u want it to be exact simulation. Or do a bit of balancing for playability ?
cheers
For the first Demo it will be the action around the British right flank zoning in on the chateau....it will be in 15mm....possible ideas will be a skirmish type game with just the Hougomont action...possibly quick play, card driven..for participation ...need more ideas for this concept though...
cheers Paul
Can u do lasalle battalions of:
4 british Guards or (inf and light)
2 Nassu light
have a long range of table artillery bombarbment( models not need)
French
1st Infantry Brigade
Bauduin, General de Brigade Pierre-Francois, Baron
1st Light Regiment (3 battalions)
Despans-Cubieres, Colonel Amedee-Louis
2nd Light Regiment (4 battalions)
Maigrot, Colonel Pierre-Francois
2nd Infantry Brigade
Soye, General de Brigade Jean-Louis, Baron
1st Line Regiment (3 battalions)
Jacquemet, Colonel Michel
2nd Line Regiment (3 battalions)
Tripe, Colonel Jean
2/2 Foot Artillery Company
Meunier, Captaine (8 guns)
the french couldn't attack all out once so some of those battalions could be reserves from casaulties
Just do a lasalles game and let people drop in and drop out of turns controlling a couple of battalions.But have someone refereeing and 1 person playing on each side from your club. When someone comes over ask them if they want a go what a go.
any way cheers
Sounds good....cheers Paul
I like the idea of Long range art bombardment (Howitzers etc) Baudin will lead the first attack ....hope he survives!
hi,
well I can do a indepth sceneiro that I can put of wiki for u if you were actaully going to do it.
can u make a rough model of Hougoumout ???.I have a good plan of the buildings. The chataeu and gardens would run the width of the table to keep it simple and not bringing more brigades into it and u can get away with that because of mainly what was happening out of the grounds was seperated by a tall hedge. Also can u field those units ??? up to 7 french battalions at least. the first brigade would go in and the rest would be reserves. This is zoning on the first and 2nd attacks.
cheers let me know if u think u can do this ???
Hi PR,
I would to see you put a in-depth scenario on the Wiki. It would be a great scenario to practice fighting in BUA, rough terrain , and cover etc. I am a 28 mm gamer so I would be really interested to hear what the relative dimensions of your terrain would be. I like the idea of no flanks to the scenario (I believe anyway this is what you are suggesting).
John
Hi ....an indepth scenario would be good...we have the Hougomont Chateau completed 15mm but will be using it for the centre piece of the Battle (actually on the British right flank) so it will be mainly a Lasalle type battle with just a small portion of the Hougomont being enacted ....this is for the Leeds Fiasco Demo....
For other Demo's it would be good to do a Hougomont participation type game lasting maybe 30 mins useing just Hougomont and using zones for defense and attack. This will be a card driven type game using the mini's for a good visual effect!....any type of ideas will be welcome.
cheers Paul
ps are you from the UK?
pps we are doing this to promote the Hougomont Project
Hi Paul,
I am not sure if you are talking to me or not, I live in Massachussettes, so a bit of a jaunt to the UK. I wish I could attend your game.
Did you use the Hovels 15mm Hougomont buildings and if so can you tell me what is the foot print. Certainly it sounds like a lot of fun and the participation game sounds like fun.
It would be pretty difficult to model Waterloo at the battalion level, so my future plans involve taking it in junks, I have the Airfix 1:72 model of La Haie Sainte, which is pretty similar to Hovels 15 mm version in foot print anyway. http://fuentesdeonoro.blogspot.com/2009/12/la-haye-sainte.html
Anyway good luck your weekend.
John
Hi John ....yes the Chateau is from Hovels, and the footprint is approx 28inches by 16 inches ..the garden is extra ....the participation game is a work in progress :)
The Lasalle ruleset seems to get better and better ....its also fexable enough to use a few house rules as needed ....looking forward to Blucher and Stonewall!
Cheers Paul
Thanks Paul,
So with the garden and keeping to the scale of the above described plan (the garden being slightly wider then the compound), you would probably need 5 ft x 1.5 ft for just the building and the garden. I have a 12 x 5 ft terrain, so I could run the scenario with the Hougomont arrayed across the short axis of the terrain and have no flanks or I could array it along the long axis with lots of room for flanks and probably enough depth.
It actually sounds like a very exciting project. In respect to PR's OB for the French, it seems good.
I am not sure about the OB for the British as it looks to me like only the light companies from 4 different British guards units were involved, as well as the rest of the 2/2nd Guards and the 2/3rd Guards how would you equate this to a Lasalle OB? The 1batt/2nd Nassau and the Hanoverian Jagers and Landwehr would be pretty straight forward.
So maybe 3 Large Battalions of Guards and 3 regular battalions of Nassau and Hanoverian (with Kielmansegge's Jagers in skirmish order). With some artillery of course.
This is 13 French vs 6 British battalions (maybe the Guards should be regularly sized rather then 6 base).
Anyway it sounds like a great idea for a scenario, love to hear other suggestion for the OB and scenario specific rules.
John
Umm that list was just a rough writing to see what forces u have. Its complicated.
Yes it should of been 1 battalion nassu 1 hanoverian.As you can see different units were comming and going. As u can see the british wrote the history. But the Germans had a fair bit to do with holding the Chateau.I was going to focus on the first and second attacks between 1pm 6pm to keep the amount of men down cause u need brunswickers and more hanovian and british and french. Any way have a look at that I ll expalin what i was going to do on another post.
Troops defending Hougoumont
11:30 AM
light company (100 men) of II/2nd British Guards
in the Garden
light company (100 men) of II/3rd British Guards
west of the buildings
detachment (10-20 men) of Netherland light infantry
Withdrawn before the battle ?
grenadier company (135 men) of I/2nd Nassau
in the buildings
two companies (2 x 135 men) of I/2nd Nassau
in the Garden
one company (135 men) of I/2nd Nassau
in Great Orchard
two companies (2 x 135 men) of I/2nd Nassau
in the Wood
one company (100 men) of Field Jager Corps
detachment (50 men) of Luneburg Light Battalion
detachment (50 men) of Grubenhagen Light Battalion
11:30 AM
British (200)
Dutch and Belgians (10-20)
Germans (1,000)
These forces were attacked by half of
French 6th Division under Prince Jérôme
(1st and 2nd Light Infantry Regiment)
12.30 - 1.15 PM
four light companies of British Guards (4 x 100 men)
I/2nd Nassau (800 men)
seven companies of II/2nd British Guards (7 x 100)
12.30 - 1.15 PM
British (400)
Germans (1,500)
These forces were attacked by the entire
French 6th Division under Prince Jérôme
2.45 - 7.00 PM
II/2nd British Guard (900 men)
II/3rd Guard British (900 men)
I/2nd Nassau (800 men)
2.45 - 7.00 PM
British (1,800)
Germans (800)
These forces were attacked by French
6th Division under Prince Jérôme and
9th Division under Maximilien Foy.
7.00 - 8.00 PM
II/2nd British Guard (900 men)
II/3rd Guard British (900 men)
I/2nd Nassau (800 men)
II KGL Line Battalion (520 men)
Hannoverian Saltzgitter Landwehr Battalion (640 men)
Brunswick Advance Guard Battalion (650 men)
Brunswick Leib Battalion (565 men)
Brunswick I Light Battalion (680 men)
7.00 - 8.00 PM
British (1,800)
Germans (3,855)
These forces were attacked by French
6th Division under Prince Jérôme and
9th Division under Maximilien Foy
Great stuff, I will look forward to your next post.
John
hi
The problem is that hogoumont was a bit of a miracle or giant stuff up by gerome Napoleons brother or a little bit of both.IT is hard to make the british compete and balanced on a wargames table.There will have to be a few special rules to give them a chance of holding.
I haven't got a website to post pictures from so Its making it awkward to explain the board.
To give the british chance.
Instead of doing 2 Large Guards battalions I was going to split the large battalions in to 2 reg battalions so the british OOB would be like this.
Im doing the troops around at 12.30 - 1.15 PM till 7pm. The First and 2nd attack.Roughly, this is more historic cause only the Light companies of the guard occupied the chateau at first.
Im doing the list starting 1pm.
2nd British Guards line Companies (1 reg batt)Reserve behind the chateau
3rd British Guards line Companies (1 reg batt)Reserve behind the chateau
2nd British Guards Light Companies (1 reg batt)in the Garden
3rd British Guards Light Companies (1 reg batt)in the chateau
Nassu Line Companies (1 regular batt) in the woods in front.
Nassu light Companies (1 regular batt) in the woods in front.
4ft by 6ft table
the troops are set up in the 4ft ends of the table.
at the 4ft british end 1/3 is Chateau 1/3 is high garden wall 1/3 is the orchard with hedges.
Half the length of the table is the chateau and wood with large hedge round outside these take up 3 ft.length of the table.
I do have a detailed diagram of the Woods and chateau
Anyway tell me what u think. hope u can understand that.
cheers
Cheers guys ...plenty of information....we will be trying it out this week, I'll try and do a write up!....was thier much French/Brit cavalry around the area or any french guard troops?
Cheers Paul
ps this scenario is becoming rather interesting ....many thanks:)
Is this what you mean PR in respect to the orientation of the terrain. The Hougomont complex with gardens has to be 3-4 times wide as deep. It sounds like Paul's complex (from Hovels) would be around 5 ft wide with the gardens, so around 18" deep.
So would you have special rules, is the walled compound hard cover and the garden soft cover etc. etc. How are you going to rate the troops.
I will look forward to your write up Paul.
John
Hi,
Nice diagram. I'm going to have to get setup to post pictures.Its going to take me a bit of time to get a free host.
No thats not what i had in mind . I didnt read properly that his chateau and gardens was 5 ft" wide.
I want to attack down the narrow part of table( as in computer printing I want portrait not Landscape).I'll explain why later. Have to do a re think. His setup means, Thats a big woods.Because the woods are roughly twice as long as the chateau and gardens
I have to go. I wont be posting for quite a few hours.
No problem, PR. I use Picasa, it is pretty simple. I just upload the image to their web albums, the website generated the appropriate code and I cut and paste it into my reply.
My little diagramme is actually from the link you originally provided.
So I think it would be need to model the skewed square (circled in blue) on this diagramme to Lasalle. The OB and terrain is pretty simple, I beleive the hard work would be deciding how many Lasalle equivalent BUA's there are, how you move from BUA to BUA, and would you need special rules for the French to enter the compound etc, etc.
I must say I am quite excited my this project.
John
ps All I need now is to scrape up the money for the buildings, the Hovel 15 mm model sounds like it would work quite well for 28mm.
Ooops Still can't do it. I got on picasa though thanks for that
Hi Guys...here is roughly how we are going to try it this week:)....it will be a what if type scenario (just for starters)....we will be using a 8x4 foot table and Hougomont and the wood/garden etc will be on the extreme British right flank slightly skewded....the woods and the garden will be scaled down abit!
I like the sound of PR's deployment but we will be starting the Battle after the Nassau Troops defending front of the wood have pulled back....this is so that we can get more in to the action.....The Brits will get Cover and Higher elevation for the chateau walls and the Chateau will be split in to zones (a bit of artistic license here).Also the French will get a Howitzer Battery firing from off table (a reinforcement roll) also Cavalry will not be allowed into the woods (I like the Infantry not halved rule)
The demo is to show the public at events the Lasalle rule system being used for Historical Battles instead of Army builder type battles....for pickup and play games Lasalle is the best on the Market but so far in the UK I have not seen it being used for big Historical games?
After seeing the Hougomont Chateau on the table ....its made me think more about the Battle of Waterloo as until you see the Chateau on the table you don't realise its importance...I am surprised that Napoleon did not just screen it and go around the flank on the British right wing! but thats another story!
Many thanks for the input Guys and if you have any more ideas they will be appreciated ...I will try and post a few pics on the forum ....cheers Paul
Hi No problem,
Um Im gunna keep going just concentrating on the Chateau and the wood for 28mm.I think Johns interested to.We can play it at the club and post it on the site wiki. Theres a lot more forces than that if you doing the british right flank and a lot artillery.
Clearly, the disproportion of the forces involved in the struggle for Hougoumont is nothing but a legend of historiography. In the course of the day, the French employed the three divisions of II Corps in this sector, for a total of 33 battalions and some 14,000 muskets. Against them, Wellington committed the brigades of Byng, du Plat, Adam, and Hew Halkett, 5 Brunswick battalions, one from Nassau, .... amounting to 21 battalions - 6 British and 15 German - and a total of 12,000
""After seeing the Hougomont Chateau on the table ....its made me think more about the Battle of Waterloo as until you see the Chateau on the table you don't realise its importance...I am surprised that Napoleon did not just screen it and go around the flank on the British right wing! but thats another story!""
After the first attack napoleon Told Jerome to go round it. But Jerome wouldn't let it go and he kept sucking in more resources from the french left flank.But in away the french couldnt ignore it because it would leave the flanks of the forces that went round it exposed. I think it would be pretty hard to screen.Very inspired choice of position by wellington and the fact that he put the guards his best troops and all the light companies in the woods.La Haye Sainte Farm doing the same for the british left flank slowing down the French attack.
I need help posting pictures on here that would really help if I could.
Hi PR .....go to Photobucket ....then up load your images to the Photobucket site ...then use one of the options on the pics...easy when you know how ...hard to describe how to do it?
Cheers Paul
Go to Picasa:
http://picasaweb.google.com/home
on the top bar click upload, it is in the centre. Choose your file and upload it. Your photo is now in the Picasa webalbum.
Click on the photo you want, then look to the right of the screen, there is a column, click on "link to this photo". You do 2 things: size the photo and check box for hide album link, then you copy the "embed image" info and paste directly into your message. And Voila....
Do not worry, I had a really tough time getting this right, and then it was so simple once I figured it out.
Paulus,
I am still not sure how your terrain is set up, are you saying that the Hougomont complex runs along the long axis of the table, with a wide open left flank. Also will there be only play around complex, or you allowing for the French to be able to get to the north of the complex.
I also do not see a rule in Lasalle for passing through a Hard Obstacle like stone walls, are you writing one, or can they only go through the gates and if that is the case how will they do it. I believe that there are both hard cover and soft cover rules in Lasalle, will you apply them to different parts of Hougomont complex? Finally how do you actually work the artillery, the max range is 12 bw for cannon, which I would believe in 15 mm gaming would be no longer than 16".
Anyway it sounds very exciting.
John
Hooray thanks Paul
ok i hope u can see that.
Are you 15mm too paul. Yes thats the wrong scale for that if you max range is 16 inches
I'm doing 28 mm.
well for the chateau I was thinking of making it 1 oversized town square. The grey wall a fortified wall.So the wall length and gardens are what you see is what you get.
Nice one PR ...thanks for all the feedback .cheers Paul
ps yes it will be in 15mm but with plenty of action on the flank extending to La haye sainte!
Thanks John,
Thanks to you I have pictures.
The french can't melee against the wall and the chateau.The french can't get past the wall or into the chateau. Unless they bring an engineer up for 1 turn and throw a 6D.
( that would have to be play tested.)
The british prepared the position the night before and made firing platforms and slit holes in the walls and hold all the gates so they can move as they please within lasalles rules.
Pge 29 crossing an obstacles
that is. stop at obstacle next turn go over
So PAUL u mean the chataeu to la haye Saint DO u want an order of battle for that.
What base width are u using for 15 mm ??
Yeah at scale you could do a town square and same size wood out front.
Heres a detail of the chateau Who evers interested.
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