Hi PR ....yes that would come in useful, although we are working to Lasalle army builder dispositions with added Brunswick support ....mainly because it will be a Lasalle type demo for the public ...ie to explain the mechanisms and flexablitie of the rules
cheers Paul
ps its certainly turning into an interesting project:)
oh ok then Your just going fit in what models u have and get the flavour of it. I won't then. I'll just carry on my 28mm scenario for wiki wth john. Sounds good for you what your doing.those pictures of the 15mm game should be helpful.
Well, I played around with the terrain, and the Hovel's Hougomont model. The following may be of some help:
I copied the outline of the Hovel's model, and annotated it with the gates, I believe that you would have 3 BUA within the walled structure as indicated. They are still way out of proportion to my base widths (40mm) as each BUA works out to 2-3 times what is recommended in the book (4BW"). Double click and the images are enlarged.
Anyway on to the terrain, here is a short axis arrangement of the complex and the orchard, no flanks really although I have made a bit of one to the east. My terrain is 5'x 12, but in the long axis there is excess clearly, certainly possible on 6x4'.
Here is a long axis orientation, but large flanks, giving the French the possibility of getting to the north gate, but little room to fight.
I think I like the second choice, the first also gives some problems with artillery range, as they are forced out of proportion because of the size of the model.
So aside from the OB, what else is there to do:
Make the chateau and garden hard cover
Make the orchard soft cover as well as rough terrain.
Woods in front the same.
Use engineers with one of the ligne battalions. ?just 1
How do gates work, there are 3 external and 1 internal, one would need to write a scenario specific rule....any ideas.
Lastly the problem of artillery range is not solved...any ideas.
Anyway any thoughts,
John
Cheers John/PR ...thanks for all the unput:)...we will be trying it out this week so hopefully I can take a few pics and give you all my impressions. The game will play as normal but the Art range for the off table Howitzers will be able to hit the Chateau after a succesful reinforcement roll etc....yes we will use 1 engineer base as well.
Hopefully the table will look well and inspire the public to what the Napoleonic Battles and Lasalle are all about ..cheers Paul
ps for Art ranges over the normal rules we say that most things in LOS are in range but with a -1 to hit (cannister ranges are normal)
I think at that scale that model would represent the Chateu the gardens the wood every thing and then just devide it up into 2 or 3 town squares
""Round Four
Napoleon's usual practice was to hammer the enemy with his artillery before attempting an infantry attack; and now, belatedly, Jerome followed his example.
Jerome had a howitzer brought forward to the edge of the wood, which began dropping shells onto the roofs of the buildings and into the yards.""
then he brought the whole battery up later.
Ive read that there wasnt much artilley going into hougoumont from the outside because of the woods.
there was barrages at the side and on the french forming up outside.
John max range for med guns is 20bw not 12bw .
there were artillery duels so your main batteries of both sides need to be within 32 inches of each other. paul. If your doing the french and british lines
John are the sides of that model really 30 inches long. ??? that really is to big for 15mm. If thats the case you really are going to have to forget tactics in the chateau to keep to scale and do something like this.
Is that a 5ft by 12 ft table ?
Look John is that setup for u or paul Im really getting confused now .LOl
LOl Im trying to do something, your doing something, and Paulus is doing something else,
i'm willing to stop what im doing to help paulus but we need to know what units he can field to decide on a scale and trying fit his scale hougoumont in.
John says "Lastly the problem of artillery range is not solved...any ideas."
Thats why I was trying not to involve British main Line forces and the outside because if you don't do that then Bombardments can be a bit abstract. U dice for them in certain areas mainly the french build up area. But if paulus is modling other british units he has to put the guns in and scale it.
Paulus your doing 8 foot by 4 foot this weekend is that right ???.
For exibition as i said you just get people who stop and show some interest to take over a battalion or 2 and thow the dice for them and you show them where to move them.
I am not sure if I have followed this thread correctly but I do not understand the premise for using BUAs to represent the Chateau.
In an earlier post on this forum Sam said that a BW was approx. 30m. As the recommended size of a BUA in Lasalle is 3BW x 3BW then the area of a BUA is 8,100 m2.
The main building complex at Hougomont in 1815 was a rectangle of around 100m by 65m. This is an area of 6,500 m2. So one Lasalle BUA would be a bit bigger than the complex in reality but near enough for game purposes.
As Lasalle works on BWs then this logic works whatever the size of figures you use.
For a detailed game of what actually happened in the building complex Lasalle are probably not the most suitable rules. This is because a lot of the fighting was at company level or smaller and not battalion level.
The allies only had a couple of companies in the Chateau a lot of the time and the highest density was possibly 800 men. It is difficult to tell exactly how many were in the Chateau because the units in there made quite a lot of detachments and the accounts make it difficult to pin down who was exactly elsewhere at the company level at all times.
Hi,
Yes to be blunt. we know all that. Look at my 15th post of what Allied troops were there and when.
But I think you can play around with the size BUA's if your doing the same for the whole table.IF you focus on the Chateau battalion rules aren't the best scale but some times u have to go with what rules and models you have.
At the moment where just helping Paulus who wants to do a few different units with the flavour of Hougoumont for the foundation he supports as well as show casing lasalle for his group. I think its going to be have to be quite abstract or hyperthetical with a few compromises. I think the main thing is to make it a balanced game. Which isn't an easy ask as you point out one minute there were companies around the chateau then the next a french corps.I do agree with u we dont have to do buas in the chateau now The problem here is there is 3 people here trying to do 3 different scales on different tables.Im going to stop what im doing and help paulus.
cheers PR
Hi,
PR, Generally I have been looking at it as a generic Hougomont scenario which anyone can use, Paul I believe has 15 mm figures and you and I have 28mm figures. He is also using the Hovel's model, so those things are pretty fixed for him. You need to develop a scenario that allows for adaptation in respect to figure size (ie BW size), terrain size, model size and availability of different units.
So the problems then, I think, are:
OB (and rating of units within OB)
Terrain (not the size but whether to allow flanks etc),
Assignment of cover and terrain factors (hard/soft, rough, elevation etc),
BUA's,
Whether to use artillery or not (and how to control for distortions that are beyond our control, like the model size),
The additional of optional rules (like engineers, half battalions etc), and
Then the writing of scenario specific rules (like getting through gates, etc)
As Allan points out, the challenge is to model a battle where one side has a bde at most and the other side has several. Well we all want to use the Lasalle rules with minimal modification, so then you have to suspend some reality and get on with it to get a good gaming experience with what you have.
I am unsure whether it is better to treat the Hougomont complex as multiple areas of hard and soft cover or treat it as a series of linked BUA's. Allan is right that the model size (at least 28" deep according to Paul), is way beyond the 4x4 BW size as recommended in the rulebook, and I believe because of this the artillery ranges are thrown out of proportion.
So I agree with you totally that to design this scenario one has to be somewhat abstract and that the critical bit is to get a balanced game using the Lasalle ruleset with a few as modifications a possible. I do not view the problem as different scales on different terrains though, a good scenario will be adaptable across scale.
The good news is that it sounds like Paul is going to test the scenario in the very near future, so we should be able to learn from his experience.
Things up in the air for me:
The British OB in respect to the Guard units, I am thinking about using 2 large battalions, and breaking off 2 bases from each to simulate the light companies, I am still not sure how to distribute them though.
The use of artillery, and whether it should be available to both sides.
Artillery ranges.
Whether to use BUA's or just terrain specific features.
Writing a rule for passage through gates.
Thanks,
John
Hi John
Thanks for that.Im really enjoying your imput. That clears up where your comming from. That is good advice to make less changes to the lasalle rules as possible and im going to approach it like that now. Your asking alot. Can you have your cake and eat it too ?.I mean hougoumont is a hard enough project to make work on the wargames table. Let alone doing telescoping scales and different OOB's. Under Bua rules he cant have his model. because of what alan pointed out.Hougoumont building complex is the size of 1 town square.3 bw x 3 bw. 4.75 inches so under lasalle rules he cant have his model unless your going to change the scales and rules of lasalle. So the chateu buildings are around 5 inches square and this is whats causing the problem with the artillery. do uhave a solution.
Thanks PR,
I agree, that using BUA might be difficult, so I am tending toward using varying terrain rules instead of BUA. I believe Paul is going to give it a try with BUA, so I will reserve judgement.
I am also going to reserve judgement with artillery, until I hear how it works out for Paul. I believe though that I can stick to the actual rules with the wide flank setup.
I think I agree with you now about using 4 regular sized guard battalion, 1 in the chateau and 1 in the orchard, with the Germans staring out front and the other 2 guard units in reserve. Here is my preliminary OB (It is of course dependent on my figure collection)
As you can see I am starting to translate it in Lasalle "speak" with one sub-commander for the British and 2 for the French. No rating yet! I think I will not add British Artillery and I am unsure on what turn the reserves (2/2&3 Guards and Soyes bde) should arrive. I also may drop one of the German units yet, still thinking about it.
In respect to passage through gates, I am planning to stick to all the cover, obstacle and engineer rules, but add an engineer rule to open gates (ie. only a batt with an attached engineer can smash down the gate, with some die toss to decide success).
I am also trying to decide whether the the 2 light guard battalions should drop there skirmishing ability when within hard cover (like the loss of unit SK value in BUA rule), got to think about it.
Anyway lots of time, it will be the late fall or early winter before I can run the scenario myself. Need to get the Hovels model and paint it, I am also short 3 légere battalions and I have only half of each german battalions painted and have yet to acquire any Naussauers. I really like projects which require me to add units, especially new ones like the Nassau.
Anyway, I will look forward to Paul's report on his experience.
Many thanks,
John
Hello all,
I have for some time been tinkering around with a Hougoumont scenario and I think this thread is a GREAT idea. OB's and map scale aside for a moment, how have you decided to set up the rules for your game? Lasalle is an excellent set of rules, but for Hougoumont with the many distinct (and some not so distinct) assaults would you consider some additional "scenario specific" rules?
Are you planning to a strictly historical simulation? If so you might consider having each ASSAULT on the chateau a separate battle. You can have specific objectives (capture the woods, breach the North Gate, capture the Great Orchard) and fight with the forces you have for that assault until the objectives are met or you "Army" (the forces available for that specific ASSAULT) reaches its BREAKPOINT. Between ASSAULTS you can reorganize your forces, add any additional reinforcements, or just take a bathroom break. :)
This system allows you to use the rules exactly as written without adding too many exceptions. You can even use the rules for BONUS TURNS and the mechanisms for reinforcements entering during the battle (ASSAULT) as written. It also lets you economize on your miniatures because you'll know exactly what you need for each ASSAULT. You will have to consider some basic rules to handle certain areas remaing in French hands between ASSAULTS, but this is more managing trrop levels than changing rules.
You are trying to 1) showcase the rules and 2) recreate a complex battle. Lasalle is simple yet elegant enought to do both. The fewer changes you have to explain to an on looker the better if you want to catch their interest.
Lastly I wouldn't worry too much about the skewing of scale with the BUA's and unit sizes. From a certain point of view, it seems to me that the Allies were figthing a company level battle at the chateau (maneuveing and reinforcing with individual companies) whereas the French were figthing at battalion level, comitting whole battalions and brigades to the attack. When yhou look at it like this, using multiple BUA's to represent the chateau is appropriate, because the Allied "battalion" that you have deployed on the table top really only represents a few companies. And with the Brits and their "mad minute," the firepower coming from it also begins to look more realistic. You can still follow the rule of only one unit per town base if you want and thereby once again stick to the rules as written.
WOW! No wonder these rules won an award :)
I hope this helps you. Sorry to be so long winded but this thread has certainly helped me to resolve some questions and issues I had about recreating this battle as well. Thanks a lot and good luck next weekend.
Cheers Guys ...plenty of food for thought:)the chart John has just posted is spot on ....we will be trying out the game on Thursday night ...I shall take a few pics and some sort of Battle report. its a pity you guys cannot attend the Leeds demo on October the 31st!
many thanks Paul
ps I like the seperate Assaults as described by Mjr Stalwart! ...nice one!
pps hope you can all get to the 2015 Waterloo anniversary....( I hope I can!)
ppps next step La Haye Sainte!
Here are the forces near the end of the battle. the thing about having flanks is. Wellington did throw in alot more battalions to keep the back of the chateau open and attack french battalions on the sides when foy crossed the battlefield to go round the back. he was badly canistered from all the guns on the british left side of the chataeu grounds and took shelter in the woods.
What are u doing about artillery. There is a way of making it the right scale for his model and that is to divide the length of his chateu complex by 3bw and multiple all the length rules in lasalles by that number. making the complex 1 BUA
Because you are starting just at the end of the 2nd french attack reserves can march on from both sides after turn one in what ever turn they want too. You are going to have to have more french battalions modeled because u have just started there at the 3rd major attack.
that is problably the best solution john. not to do bau's and just call everything What u see is what u get and classify the terrein as fortified, Hard cover, soft cover.Measuring the gardens orchard Woods in proportion to the chateua complex
Paulus love to get after action report with photo's.
Nice list John it is still all inside forces so I would forget about outside artillery for this play test . Just the battery jerome brings up to the edge of the woods.
I would keep to lasalles list for skirmishers to give the british a chance.
Another thing you might think about is treating each individual building as its own BUA and the open spaces among them as open, with the wall treated as walls. That would be cranking the scale down a lot (hence, perhaps better to have artillery absent). That might allow for a bit more dynamic game rather than just pushing at adjacent BUAs.
Phil
that actaul hedge wood was hudge.
But u can proportion this out for what ever size.
the garden wall is roughly 6 times wider than the chateu building and so on.
So John with your list thats something quite generic
and all the models are what you see is what you get. No buas
Cutting bits of the bottom and sides if u have a smaller table
John I wasn't going to say anything cause I think thats a fun list and balanced to play.
That list with your Long table map will suit what Paulus is doing.
But you have The british last attack units up against the French First attack units at aprox 12am and the british are more like the 7pm units. But i guess it doesnt matter you can just say foys Division is behind those units. And set up will have the french controlling the woods. Also the 2 guards are more like 450 men line and 450 men light. because of what they did on the day I think its acceptable to make them in to a regular batalion each.
I can't make his model work with a generic setup so are going to carry on with what im doing and perhaps post how to make a simple carboard hougoumont building complex to fit in with my table sizes scales.
Any way cheers
A fresh start
Double Click to make it larger.
Decided to make it more Lasalles freindly and start of with something simple and build on it
The chateau complex is Bua that is 3BW .So a town square You can just do a base or A building with a wall around it or recreate Hougoumont in 3BW good luck with that.
First table draft
It looks interesting PR, I presume the 2 bdes of ligne will be the French reserve. You do not have them in your table. I agree with the ratings for the French, although they were all high in the French OB, none of hem are exceptional, are you going to make the reserve ligne experienced or amateur.
I am not so sure making the Nassau valiant and guard though, I believe the 4 british guard are ok as this. In my OB, I am going to make some the German units shaky, aside from Kielmansaegge's jagers, The Naussers after all have just switched sides, I have to think about this a bit more.
I also believe that a French artillery is integral to the scenario.
John
thanks, copying your table style and you made it fast for me to do a list.
I'm just play testing this brigade going in on its own first to keep the numbers down. I don't have that many french yet. Just keeping the first list small and simple for people who don't have many figures.
that was basically the first attack. the first brigade.
""I am not so sure making the Nassau valiant and guard though, I believe the 4 british guard are ok as this. In my OB,""
Well they were still there at 8pm so I feel they fought bravely.They weren't even in hard cover like the british alot of the time they were in the orchard so I rate them.
AT waterloo Roughly 70% of wellingtons troops were not british so some of them must of been good. I think they get a raw deal by historians.Of course some of them werent that flash.
Sort of taking Alans suggestion of breaking things into Attacks.
1 howitzer came up then a battery after the first attack failed.
But i do believe the stuff that was brought up were the guns that did most of the damage.
The french couldnt fire over the trees you can see by the map thats a hudge wood.
So they are very important as u say.
Just trying to find the point of balance. and play test the engineer rule.
Just thinking about that British behind hard cover can roll to take a disrupt off.
Hi Chaps ....just to let you know how the Hougomont game played out last night ...the Brits held Hougomont! the British Guard are a tough cookie ...ie Valiant/Guards/Cover makes it hard for the french to dislodge them!...the Nassau (reliable experianced)were repulsed then it got hard.
...Pires cavalry certainly gave the Brit Light Dragoons and Brunswickers a hard time but needed more time and infantry to exploit that flank....on turn 6 the french recieved the off table Howitzer battery but even with it Hougomont certainly soaks up the French infantry Battalions!
We rolled for the Sub Commanders and the French even had a +1 commander attacking with his Brigade but to no avail....luckily he did not die in the first two assaults!
We have about 5 weeks to finally show the demo to the public and the garden and the orchard need completing ....just got to fine tune the forces and voila job done ....many thanks for all the input .cheers Paul
Hi Paul, Great looking photos, certainly convinced me to buy the model, it looks great.
Trying not to drive you crazy, but a couple of questions about the terrain rules, how did the BUA work out, and did you make any of the walls impregnable or were they all regarded as obstacles so they could be crossed. Was there a special rule for passing through gates.
Looks like it was a lot of fun.
John
Hey Paulus thats really fantastic. Looks really good. Hougoumont looks great.
It looks like you have the flavour of it. Nice.Really exciting
Like John I'm interested in the town bu's system u used. And special rules. and any insights you have.
Jerome was critised for the way he attacked. And instead of going round like he was ordered by Napoeleon he kept sucking man power into hougoumont. It was sposed to be a fient attack to draw off british troops from the centre of the field.but had the opposite effect of drawing badly needed men for the other attacks.
So u could have a scenario rulespecifying Jerome was -1 vigour and the subcomanders 0. that would help the british. But if u want a bit of the unknown dicings fine too.
The wall in extended out and went round the garden. and then there was hedge round the orchard.Its on my map but i can show plainy with a paint drawing if u dont understand ?
they obviously havent given you the rest of the wall with the model.That gives the british another hard cover area to behind.
this is taken from your foundation site
Theres a bit of damage here and there but not much. Certainly does seem like bombardment damage. Some of the damage that is there could be age related too. So Im going to go with no outside artillery bombardments in there. Because also they would of been afraid of hitting there own troops.
Theres also a line of thought that with the gates. The french didn't seriously break open the gates. There was the combined cavalry and infantry attack that went round the sides to the south gate earlier on and found it open. And 30 men got in who were slaughtered. But the french didn't break any gates down. So in the chateu wall theres no melees and no gates the french have to shoot them out I'm thinking about this.
Cheers.
Hi Pr ...we wondered about the commanders ratings ...but then thought thats what makes Lasalle exciting...to be honest we did not need to change the rules much ...they certainly capture the feel ...we have still more work to do ie the garden and the Orchard, but thats nearly done ....I will post more photo's when its completed ....it certainly has been a worthwhile project and inspiring for other club members as well.
Cheers Paul
yes for me too.
how was the force balance.
Did u see how long that wall is the garden goes in there, and the orchard past that, in a hedge.
How did u play the buas.
Hi PR...yes we used the wall in the garden....the British guards (4Bases) are very hard to push back we split Hougomont into 4 zones for starters but I couldn't get any French in the first two:( using Lasalle rules as normal its still hard to get the Guards out ....might be easier to try and shoot the blighters out ....we had 3 Guards battalions (1200men) in for starters and they are certainly up to the job.
I am painting up some French Light (irregular) Battalions ..they might work better.
Wellington certainly knew how to get the best out of his deployment, and Napoleon wasn't on form! ....thats all History though ....when we played out Waterloo at the last show the French swung around Hougomont and came on the British flank....I think thats what Wellington feared most! .....good old Jerome
Cheers Paul
Oh I can't see a long wall in your photo.They got canistered by the artillery in the main line when they did.but yes on the extreme flank away from hougoumont would of been better.
cheers
Paul
Great job. Congrats!
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