Barrier for new players - figure count shock

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Barrier for new players - figure count shock

(16 posts) (7 voices)

Started 1 year ago by nathan
Latest reply from Mycenius

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nathan
Member

So I was having coffee with a gaming buddy and he asked me about the rules I had mentioned for Napoleonic type gaming. His miniature gaming is pretty much confined to WW2 and Fantasy/Sci-fi. We talked about the strange method of making war where everyone stands in a line and how skirmishers worked and why they did it the way they did.

So I pulled out my laptop and we spent a bit of time looking at some paintings, other people's figures, looking up trivia about the war, looking at Perry and Victrix plastics, 10mm Old Glory, 1/72 plastics, etc.,. We talked a bit about the size of our gaming tables and what basing method would work given the rules are all in BVs.

So then he asked me how many figures he'd need to start some 1809 typical French in the Army Builder system. The basic army without any of the extra support brigades just to get started.

8 Veteran Infantry Brigades
1 Divisional BTY

Okay cool. Now what makes up a Veteran Infantry Brigade

4 Infantry Battalions
1 Reserve BTY

So that brings us to

32 Infantry Battalions
9 Artillery Batteries

Each Battalion is made up of 4 bases. Of all the pictures we saw, my friend responded well to the 4 figure bases.

So that's:

512 infantry miniatures
36 cannons and howitzers
Their crew

His response (and I quote): "That's the most f-----g ridiculous thing I've ever heard. And we haven't even added in any support brigades yet? That's just the basic army to start?"

EDIT: It appears I might have been wrong. It looks like I assumed the Division was made up of Brigades and then you find what's in each brigade. Apparently the core units are Battalions.

Posted 1 year ago #
cam_millar
Member

8 Veteran Infantry Brigades

No, you have misread it - they are battalions not brigades. So the French core is 8 battalions and 4 guns.

Then you add a support Brigade - say 2-4 cavalry units and 3 guns.

Hopefully if you recalc on this basis you won't suffer from quite as much sticker shock! In fact you are probably more likely to use 6 or 8 infantry per base.

Cam

Posted 1 year ago #
nathan
Member

YES!!

That's the best news I've had all day.

I love being wrong. :D

Posted 1 year ago #
Scruff
Member

Well you weren't alone making that mistake, when the rules were released, there were a few others that made that mistake including us, but after a double take decided, naa that cant be right, and the AB clicked.

cheers

Posted 1 year ago #
nathan
Member

I texted my friend about this. His response: "It's on like donkey kong".

I think my mistake is pretty natural. Corps are made of Divisions, which are made of brigades, which are made of battalions, which are made of companies, which are made of platoons. It never occured to me that a Division would be made of battalions, so I just looked to see what the Brigade of the same name was made up of.

So actual figure count at 4 figures per base of the French Core when attacking:

128 Infantry
3 Cannons
1 Howitzer
Crew.

I feel better :D

Posted 1 year ago #
Mycenius
Member

What size table did you think you were gonna need to get all those figs on for a game basic game with just the starter list? ;-) And have room to move them that is... :-)

Posted 1 year ago #
cam_millar
Member

Mycenius - you actually do have a 500 figure Lasalle army don't you? How big a table will you need?

Cam

Posted 1 year ago #
Mycenius
Member

Mycenius - you actually do have a 500 figure Lasalle army don't you? How big a table will you need?

Ahhhh, buuuttttt - (1) it isn't 500 figs for the basic starter list ;-) and (b) I wouldn't expect to have it all on table in one game (normally)! :-D

Anyway my (somewhat tongue in cheek) point was if you stepped back and thought about it from a fresh perspective (mulled it over for a while) you'd realise something wasn't right as it just couldn't conceivably be that many figures for the basic starter list... right...? ;-)

:-)

Posted 1 year ago #
cam_millar
Member

Who wants to claim the record holder for the most figures used in a Lasalle game - any one been involved in any uber games?

Cam

Posted 1 year ago #
Mycenius
Member

What scale Cam? Bit of favouritism to the micro-lads otherwise - "urrr, yeah, I've had 3,257 figs on table with just my starter list..." ;-p

Posted 1 year ago #
nathan
Member

My experience of Napoleonics is mostly seeing convention games with an incredible amount of figures on the table. When I talked with local Nap players about what they play, I totally got the impression that 500 figure armies was basically what they considered normal. They played at conventions and put down huge, huge armies and played all weekend. Or they'd come to Friday night club nights that went from 6pm to midnight, spent an hour setting up, played for four hours, took photos and notes and then tore down. Next month, they set up from the pictures and notes to continue from where they left off. I have lots of miniature gamer friends who still think that's what Napoleonics is like because it's all they've ever seen.

The idea that Lasalle was no different than their approach was very disappointing considering how much I've heard the game talked about as suitable for people who are new to the era. Fortunately the impression (which I was not alone in) was inaccurate.

As it stands, it's totally natural to read what is in the core and then on the next page (called Composition) you find these brigade descriptions with very similar (or even identical) names which tell you what is inside those formations. The rules are simply missing a line on page 96 under the Core Units section that says something like "Units listed here are Battalions or Batteries, and not the Brigades described on each nation's Composition page." Such a line would also be useful on page 94 or 95 in the appropriate section.

Think of it this way, had I not posted here, I probably would have walked away from starting Lasalle and always had a vague notion of even the rules being called easy for new people requiring an insane number of miniatures just to get started.

I look at the core list. I see what I need. On the next page (under the heading "French Composition and Notes" or "Austrian Composition" or whatever) I find boxes with those names that tell me what's in them. It's a totally natural conclusion.

Posted 1 year ago #
kenportner
Member

Well, if you do 15mm and follow the "recommended" basing the OP's original thought is not far off depending on the army.

For example, IIRC the Austrian basic infantry division is 6 large infantry battalions. At the recommended 8 figures per base, that's 288 infantry. Add a supporting infantry brigade and you're at over 500 infantry figures.

Posted 1 year ago #
Mycenius
Member

As it stands, it's totally natural to read what is in the core and then on the next page (called Composition) you find these brigade descriptions with very similar (or even identical) names which tell you what is inside those formations. The rules are simply missing a line on page 96 under the Core Units section that says something like "Units listed here are Battalions or Batteries, and not the Brigades described on each nation's Composition page." Such a line would also be useful on page 94 or 95 in the appropriate section.

Nathan - most certainly - even I did that when I first got the rulebook when Lasalle originally came out - but when I thought about it, I realised they had to be battalions because in 28mm [figure scale] the figure numbers would be too high for the basic list sans support choices - so I 'clicked' about an hour later after my initial read of the book... :-)

...but as Ken says in smaller scales you might not see that that obviously as the natural inverse progression of figure volume to figure size may obscure that.... :-)

...and I always just presume people are talking 28mm (unless they've said otherwise)... ;-)

Posted 1 year ago #
Alan Charlesworth
Member

kenportner your correct re the Austrians. As the attacker with Infantry Division Core + Infantry Division support you are talking 552 figures plus 8 guns and crew (in 15mm using recommended figure/base ratios).

It doesn't look so much on the table though!

But a bit daunting if you are starting from scratch!

Anybody worked out what the lowest body count AB list is?

Of course you can have a lot of fun with smaller armies. No law that says your army has be AB sized. Some of the most enjoyable games I have had under any rules and period have been with quite small forces.

Posted 1 year ago #
Evan
Member

We did a largish game here in Palmy Nth, NZ, last year with the total of figures (in 15mm) around the 2000 mark, there were 5 of us playing.

Posted 1 year ago #
Mycenius
Member

We did a largish game here in Palmy Nth, NZ, last year with the total of figures (in 15mm) around the 2000 mark...

Just out of curiosity what size table did you have them on Evan - to get an idea of density...? :-)

Posted 1 year ago #

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