Honour Forums

Discuss the Honour system.

1. blucher
   Member

   Situation last night. I think we played it right.

   My hussars charge Marks unit of dragoons. A second unit of dragoons counter charges me. I am the overall attacker and they are the overall defender. However their second unit is sort of an attacker too depending on the situation.

   So I get real lucky and win a decisive victory. This clearly destroys the first unit. I think it destroys the counter attacker too yes? This is how we played it and I didnt see any rule to overide the overall attacker/defender situation.

   Also, IF I had lost decisive I would have been destroyed because one of his units was counter attacking. This IS stated in the rules as an exception. Therefore which ever side lost would be destroyed.

   missing anything?

   Posted 1 year ago #

2. Nick the Lemming
   Member

   You run combats by defending unit, and the c-attacker counts as a defender, so whoever had the initiative would choose one of the defending units, and run that combat, and then the other combat would be run. It's impossible to have more than 1 unit defending (since you choose one defending unit at a time), so there's no way you could destroy both defending units in one go.

   Posted 1 year ago #

3. Scruff
   Member

   Nick is right, you pick one of your defending Cav units vs the attacker, and remember the attacking Cav will be at 1/2 dice as he is still yet to fight another contacted unit.

   cheers

   Posted 1 year ago #

4. Another_Grognard
   Member

   Nick is right because it's impossible to have more than one unit defending since you choose one defending unit at a time to resolve combat. However, if initiative means at the start of the Combat Phase both players roll a die, then this is correct. The higher roll has first choice in which combat to resolve. In case of a tie, the defender gets to choose first. Both players alternate picking one defending unit at a time. Note: if one side has superior commander, then that side always gets to pick first.

   So in the case you mentioned above, and the "defender" had been able to pick first, he would choose one of his defending units - either the Dragoons being charged or the Dragoons making the counter charge (both are defending units) - and resolve that one combat; not both at the same time.

   Remember, the Hussars get half dice for "When resolving combat against one defender, while still in contact with another" for the first combat, and if it wins, full dice against the second combat. Note: the attacking Hussars do not get half dice for being counter charged in the flank by the Dragoons as the Hussars are the attackers, and only defending units halve combat dice if flanked (attacked in the side/rear).

   Posted 1 year ago #

5. MarkGrindlay
   Member

   Intertesting,

   but it wouldn't have helped with the dice I was rolling that game.

   Posted 1 year ago #

6. blucher
   Member

   Thanks guys,

   Im slightly concerned that we messed this up. This is like my 6th game!

   I have a crap brain ..

   Posted 1 year ago #

7. MarkGrindlay
   Member

   I'm sure there is an opening to take advantage of, with that admission...

   Posted 1 year ago #

8. adesant
   Member

   This is a totally ludicrous rule, especially when played out in admittedly only my second game this evening.

   British Infantry attack French infantry. French Dragoons countercharge into the REAR of British infantry.

   British player wins the dice of and elects to resolve the Infantry vs Infantry conflict first (at half dice for being in contact with 2 defenders) and forces the French Infantry to fall back.

   British Infantry now resolves the conflict with the other 'Defender', ie: The French Dragoons that countercharged. Since the British are no longer in contact with two defenders they do not halve their dice. In addition as they are the attacker they do not half their dice for being charged by cavalry and not in square, they also do not half their dice for being attacked in the rear.

   This is a nonsensical situation. Surely the British when being attacked form both sides AND by cavalry to boot, should get more of a penalty in the combat.

   This cannot be right, surely.

   Posted 1 year ago #

9. Sgt Steiner
   Member

   Hi

   Only played once myself but I think that after the Brit unit choses the French Inf as Defender its then the French turn to select a defender ie the Brit unit hit in rear.
   Brit unit could only select the 2nd French unit ie the Dragoons if the French player selected a different Brit unit as a defender elsewhere ?
   Also Brit would not in this case count as in contact with 2 defenders as only one is defender ie the French Inf to its front ?
   It would however count half dice when it is defender as contacted on rear ?

   Not 100% sure on any of this

   Cheers

   Posted 1 year ago #

10. seldon
    Member

    That is indeed an alarming result. I am concerned that it might be an unintended consequence of the phrasing of the rules. I say this because upon reading this I went to the book and read the example on page 54.
    Note that in the example it is mentioned that French unit A is in trouble since the Austrian cavalry caught them not in square. The author could have mentioned that if the first combat was the Austrian cav the french still had to roll half dice for contacting two enemies, but no he went for the reference of infantry not in square and makes a point about doing a careless charge close to enemy infantry.

    I think this particular interpretation might need a clarification from Sam. I don't think the example matches our interpretation of the rule. It might be the case that in particular when resolving the combat with the counter charging unit the attacker might still suffer the effects of the defender. Though if that is the case maybe a clarification is needed.

    Same thing in the example in page 58, note that again the author mentions that the french infantry will be at half dice for fighting cavalry while they are not in square. This is just like the example you presented and the author states that the french infantry would fight at half dice against the cav.

    Any thoughts?

    Francisco

    Posted 1 year ago #

11. adesant
    Member

    Well we played it so that the british infantry in the example tonight which were 'squashed' between defending French Infantry and countercharging French Dragoons DID suffer the same effects as the defender as it just didnt seem right that they didnt seem to have a penalty for being attacked in the rear or attacked by Cavalry when not in square.

    But IMO this does need a clarification.... because as it stands.. the piggy in the middle above doesnt really suffer any ill effects (or at least as many ill effects that you may assume would happen).

    Maybe it should be a special situation where the countercharging unit should in this case be classed as the attacker when resolving the combat, i don't know.... thoughts anyone?

    Posted 1 year ago #

12. seldon
    Member

    Or simply add that the attacker also gets half dice if inf not in square vs cav or contacted in the flank.

    It might had been left out because the attacker usually contacts with the front and infantry doesn't attack cav and the concept of the counter charge was added later...

    Posted 1 year ago #

13. Sam Mustafa
    Le Grand Fromage

    If the French dragoons countercharged into the British rear, then by definition they are not to the British (attacker's) front, correct? So Yes, you should have halved the British dice, because they are an attacker whose enemy does not cover ≥ half of their front.

    I suppose it's remotely possible for the British unit to win both combats, if absolutely everthing breaks their way: winning the combat choice, winning despite being halved and pushing back the French infantry, and then fighting off the French dragoons, but unlikely, given that they (the British) will be halved in both combats. And of course, it's pretty likely that the British will normally lose that first combat against the French INF, in which case they'll be totally destroyed because they can't fall back.

    Posted 1 year ago #

14. Scruff
    Member

    As Sam mentioned, the attacker, British Infantry, is halved vs the French Line for multiple Defenders, and will get halved vs the Cavalry for Enemy covering less than half their front (they were attacked in the rear).

    It is very remote that the Brits will survive their turn, if the dice gods were in their favor, 8 French dice vs 4 British dice times 2 combats, but they are dead meat on the next French turn, attacked by the Inf from the front and the Cav in the rear and no where to fall back to, 14 dice vs 4. (14 is assumed as both defenders take 1 hit on fallback) I guess they could get really lucky again ...

    cheers

    Posted 1 year ago #

15. seldon
    Member

    So what about the examples in pages 54 and 58 that indicate that infantry that gets countercharged by cavalry still are at half dice due to being infantry in combat with cavalry while not in square ?

    Francisco

    Posted 1 year ago #

16. Scruff
    Member

    Well, for page 54, it still works fine ...
    1st combat is French A vs the counter charging Cav, A is at 1/2 dice for fighting multiple defenders, the Cav and Austrian 1.

    page 58 is the same as above, regardless of whichever combat is chosen as first defender, the Attacking French are at 1/2 dice due to the multiple defenders halving.

    hope this helps

    cheers

    Posted 1 year ago #

17. adesant
    Member

    Thanks for the clarification Sam, quite an odd subject for my first post here haha.

    Posted 1 year ago #

18. Naps Newbie
    Member

    Funny thing about this situation against Ade last night, was that I could have beaten them both if I'd have thought about the order of combat better.

    I had a large unit with a higher espirit so was running 14 dice or 7 at half. The (small) inf had a DISR so I went for the 7 against his 7 rather than the 7 against the 8 of his (small) Cav in my rear. I won 3-2 on hits to push his infantry back but then dice failed me as I lost 3-0 against the Cav and was wiped out. The second FAIL dice of the night after my Large Rifles had lost a conclusive result against a conscript infantry :-(

    But thinking about it now, if I had gone against his Dragoons first, albeit at a slight disadvantage, and I had won and beaten him off, I would then have been at full dice against his infantry 14 against 7. I can't confirm whether any other half dice mods would have been in play since I have now lent my rule book to another guy at the club hoping to convince him to fly the Spanish flag lol.

    Moral of the story is when countercharging, make sure you hit the attacker in such a way that you ensure they will get the half dice penalty based on frontage coverage. We did at the time think that the mods had to be read in such a way that the infantry must suffer from either the flank mod or the 'not in square' mod despite them being the attacker generally.

    Anyway only our second game. Finding it slow to pick up (specially me whose deployment almost handed the game to my opp). Still we had a good laugh and the game plays in a way that is in good spirits rather than the competitive nature of some of the games that have lost popularity at the club. There was also some interest from other members and I reckon there is an opportunity to get 6 to 8 players at our club playing, over time.

    So if anybody is looking to play for a game in the West Mids UK, give us a shout

    Posted 1 year ago #

19. seldon
    Member

    So should the statement about the infantry being at half dice for fighting against cavalry in page 58 be disregarded ?

    3rd paragraph of the example

    Francisco

    Posted 1 year ago #

20. vilcum
    Member

    Seldon, the example seems correct, but as a unit only halves combat dices once, no matter how many of these criteria it meets (pg 57) there is no point as they are halved by other causes.

    Posted 1 year ago #

21. seldon
    Member

    I agree that the result is the same but the implications are different.

    In many other cases it could happen that an infantry unit attacking another infantry unit gets counter charged by cavalry and depending of the order of the combat it could mean that at some point you could have a combat where the infantry unit that charged finds itself finally fighting only the cavalry.

    Now, reading carefully in page 54 it warns that it is dangerous for infantry to charge when cavalry could counter charge them ( because they will not be in square ) and in the example in page 58 it specifically says clearly "( Even had they not been in contact with two enemies, infantry not in square would be halved against cavalry )"

    This would indicate that the half dice for infantry not in square vs cavalry was still meant to apply when the infantry is charging but is itself countercharged.

    What I am trying to understand is if this is the original intention of the rules as explained in these statements in the two examples ( ie that infantry would ALWAYS be at half dice when fighting cav not in square ) or if the examples should be ignored to preserve the integrity of the rules as written.

    I am not trying to be stubborn, but is is not difficult to imagine the case were a unit of infantry charges another inf unit. It is itself coutnercharged by cav, the combat between the inf units is fought and despite the odds the charging unit wins and the next combat is the charging infantry against the countercharging cav, and now the "touching two enemies" rule does not apply and as per our current interpretation the inf not in square is not applied.

    But the other player might correctly point out to the quote I posted above saying that it should apply.

    thanks
    Francisco

    Posted 1 year ago #

22. Scruff
    Member

    Ahhh I see where you are going with this I think.

    Where the quote is coming from in the example is on page 57 where the bullet points are fleshed out abit more.

    Under Defender halves dice, theres a bullet that says "When an Infantry unit NOT in square is being attacked by Cavalry"

    Yes I know its under defender halves ;) but I suspect that the rules man (yes I know, questioning Sam) may have gotten the wires a bit crossed there, and perhaps mistakenly counted the Cav as attacking when in reality they are one of the defenders from charging (oops make that counter charging)

    Sam?

    Cheers

    Posted 1 year ago #

23. Sam Mustafa
    Le Grand Fromage

    Ah, I see what Francisco is saying now, about the diagram on page 58.

    I don't have time at this moment to run through all the verbiage, to determine whether there needs to be an errata or not, but Yes, the idea is that "Defending" infantry AND "Attacking infantry when countercharged" are BOTH halved, if fighting enemy cavalry in any formation other than square.

    Posted 1 year ago #

24. seldon
    Member

    Thanks ! that makes sense !

    Good to know going forward.

    Francisco

    Posted 1 year ago #

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