Hi All
I know the Polish list in due out next year but I’m thinking of starting to get some models together so until then can I assume the core list for the Empire period will be the same as the French one(6 Inf, Div Bat and 2 Inf )?
What Organic and Reserve Brigades are we looking at? I was thinking;
Organic Brigades: Infantry, Light Cav and Lancer.
Reserve Brigades: Cuirassier? Guard Lancer.
What do you think?
Thanks
JP
Hi John Paul - for what its worth, sounds like you can't go to far wrong using your suggestion for the core list and organic brigades though obviously Sam will have to determine the exact composition. However, I don't think you would find Guard Lancers under any command outside the Imperial Guard.
Hi,
If you look at the Polish OOBs from 1812 and 1813 you will usually see that a Brigade consisted of two regiments each of three bttns. The Polish did not have light battalions. They did however have integral skirmishers as per the French.
I think the best way to look at the Core/Organic/Reserve thing is to look to where the brigade will come from. If it comes from the same Division - Organic. If it comes from the same Corps - reserve. If it comes from a different Corps - forget it.
For the Polish in 1812 you would look to using the factors in the book, and looking like:
Core: 6 Bttns Line (2 Rgiments each of three bttns); 1 Foot Bty; with two bttns for the Attacking option.
Organic: As per above - ie another brigade in the same division; or 2 Hussar/Chasseur+ plus 1 horse bty
Reserve: 2 Lancer+ plus 1 Horse bty.
This is just the way I read it. I was wrong before once......
:-)
John McLennan
Auckland, New Zealand
I think John M. is probably on the right track. Regardless, building the way he suggests will put you in the right position when the list comes out. The core can't be too far off of that and, at the very least, I'm sure all those battalions could be used once the list comes out. I'm also going to start painting Poles before the release of the army download, and I'll put something together along the lines of John's suggestion.
I'm hoping they will get Saxons as an allied brigade, but I think I'll hold off until I know for sure on that one...
-Scott
JP - those Poles will be very cool against my Russians. I have some French figures you can have to put towards them. d
Hi Scott,
One could look at Saxons as a possible allied list. Again OOBs put them together - so hey why not? Certainly for "unofficial" lists they would be a natural Reserve.
My big worry is that people will expect the Polish cuirassiers to be able to be used as Reserve. This would be a real "fantasy" list as they were either brigaded with other (non-Polish) cuirassiers or in garrison. But then the official Westphalian allied list has 4 light cav in a brigade.......
It must leave Sam sleepless some nights trying to balance these lists without resorting to points. I am glad he is sticking to the points free, modular approach. My armies "feel" right this way.
I will of course build "what if" armies to allow me to use my favourite units.
John McLennan
Auckland, New Zealand
Hi John
I was thinking about Saxons as a possible ally in the Empire period, perhaps inspired a bit from the Battle of Raszyn. Beyond that, though, I don't know if they would be an appropriate allied brigade or not.
You're right about the currasiers, though there does seem to be a touch of "fantasy" in some of the lists, so this wouldn't bother me much either way. If they are there as reserves, then its a good excuse to get more Poles on the table!
I agree about the list system Sam has put together. It does seem "right", and avoids what could be some very ahistorical forces purchased with points simply to get the best force on the table. Sam's system just seems to work better in this type of game, and maintains the right feel.
I'll be starting on my Poles in a couple of weeks, and will use your suggestions as a guide. As slow of a painter as I am, the list should be out long before I need to worry about painting units that won't be used.
-Scott
Hi Scott,
With the Bavarian list now online I am thinking that the Polish list will be interesting. We could talk up a storm about what we think it should look like - but all we need to know is that it will be full of Poles. How cool is that?
If we have more stuff than we need for the core brigade, we can just buy more stuff for another brigade. If we are a little short - we can just buy more stuff.......
If these little guys looked more like shoes we could get the girls interested real fast......
Have fun over there!
John
Oh, and......
A Saxon allied brigade in 1809 would be super cool. Polish czapkas and Saxon bicornes. Sweeeeet. Away with round I say!
:-)
John-
Yeah, it's going to be fantastic. You just can't beat an army list full of Poles!
LOL @ "more like shoes"
-Scott
Not sure what to do about the Polish Cuirassiers, since they'd be detached to a French / French - allied reserve corps. So I think perhaps a more fun way to do it, would be to make a Reserve Brigade option for Cuirassiers, that included the Polish regiment, plus one other regiment of your choice: French, Saxon, or Westphalian.
Sam, I think that would work very well, and you're right, that would be a fun way to do it, for me at least.
-Scott
Hi,
Indeed! This would give the feel as well as the fun. Most importantly it would give a solid offensive option.
John
So if I work to somthing like this would I be right?
Duchy of Warsaw Empre Period Infantry Army
Based On the OOB for The Battle of Borodino
17th Infantry Division commanded by General de brigade Jan Henryk Dąbrowski
1st Infantry Brigade (Core)- GdB Zoltowski
1st Infantry Regiment - 3 battalions
6th Infantry Regiment - 3 battalions
10th Foot Battery
2nd Infantry Brigade (Organic Choice) - GdB Krasinski
14th Infantry Regiment - 3 battalions
17th Infantry Regiment - 3 battalions
11th Foot Battery
Light Cavalry Division (Reserve choices) - GdD Sebastiani,
18th Light Cavalry Brigade
4th Chasseur-a-Cheval Regiment (786 men in 4 squadrons)
or
19th Light Cavalry Brigade
1st Chasseur-a-Cheval Regiment (652 men)
12th Uhlan Regiment (497 men)
or
19th Light Cavalry Brigade
5th Chasseur-a-Cheval Regiment (791 men in 4 sq.)
13th Hussar Regiment (755 men in 4 sq.)
Hi, everybody.
I´m very interested in Warsaw army, in fact I started to paint as fast as posible waiting for the list.
My question is; would be Krakus troops diferents from lancers Uhlans?
nikephorous's comment about the size of the Westphalian light cavalry brigade prompts me to mention this. I've noticed that light cavalry brigades generally seem awfully big. I'm used to seeing light brigades of two, sometimes three regiments, rarely four. That, and the comparative figure numbers on the bases (8 inf to 3 cavalry, I know it's not a strict figure/man ratio but the look...), makes me wonder if the cavalry units really more represent pairs of squadrons than whole regiments? It doesn't really matter for game play, but might in the construction of historical scenarios.
What do others think?
Phil
Hi Phil,
It is all in the numbers. The rules give a guide to unit sizes:
...four bases represents 300-500 men....... a large (6 base) unit represents 500-700 men.
So an 800 man unit would be 2 units of 4 bases?? Why not? French Guard CaC would be 2 large units?? I feel that for "friendly" games this is a great solution. For comps - stick to the lists or your opponent will just whine until he cries. (Fun to watch - but usually ends in a disappointing draw).
On another thread someone asked about units that were not 4 or 6 bases. I did not look too long for an answer as this seemed a complication I did not need. He will have looked at the "unit scale" as given in the rules and gone "hhmmmmmm". So Picton's Brigade at Waterloo would have 2 and 3 bases per unit??????? Well I did.... ;-)
Sam has written a set of rules for competition play that give the "feel" of a Napoleonic army and battle. We all have our individual interpretations of how correct he is, and I am glad we do. Baaaaa! (no sheep were harmed in the making of this missive). We should not follow anyone too blindly - 1st Citizen Mustafa just doesn't sound good.... However "Sam, the author of a fun set of Napoleonic rules" is something I will vote for.
OK - back to the thread..... I feel that for comps we should stick to the "letter of the law", and for friendlies we should look to the "spirit of the law". If you are on the other side of the table with a good looking army and all 48 light horse are from the same regiment I am ok with that. They come off just as fast irrespective of the paint job!
After all, the last thing we want is a repeat of the DBx fiasco where Phil B would change rules with astonishing frequency to placate the nay-sayers.
I am a Yay-sayer. Save the trees and say NO to Lasalle 3.1.3 (and all that rubbish that goes with it). Lasalle 1.0 should be the final print.
Field the units you like and want to pay for - it is your "army". As long as you are within the bounds of reason and the lists then what does it matter? We all use a spare Italian Battalion as Westphalian when we are attacking don't we? We all use Swiss in our French brigades don't we?
Paint 'em as you will and play with them.
John McLennan
Auckland
New Zealand
(I prefer to be called a Snifter - Jaffas are too common up here)
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