I am assembling my French Peninsula 28mm army at present and am in the process of ordering some flags. Just wanted to get my head around a few things.
Am I correct in stating each unit in lasalle is a battalion not a regiment? I am only learning about napoleonic history etc so correct me if I am wrong but after 1808 only one eagle was carried per regiment so if I am formimg my list based around the forces at Salamanca 1812 I would have say the 39th Line Regiment as my conscript unit with one unit carrying the eagle and say the other 3 units carrying fanions?
How many units in Lasalle would make up a regiment do you think?
I have to field 4 conscript and 3 veteran for the core peninsula list. I understand the 39th and 59th were conscript infantry but as to veteran am I safe to put any other line regiments from Salamanca down as my veteran regiments like the 69th from 1st division under Foy?
How do you tell what was a veteran regiment and what was a conscript? I have come across a very good site given to me by Stuart at Maverick Models which gives excellent info on Orders of battle
http://www.cgsc.edu/carl/nafziger.htm
Flags, fanions and historical representation
(15 posts) (7 voices)-
Posted 1 year ago #
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Normalley, in the napoleonic age, the regiment (administrative unit) was not a tactical unit for the infantry.
The tactical unit was the battalion. So, for me at less, one "unit"= one battalion.
In Spain there were a lot of situations with one battalion regiment, two, three or four (with the spanish guards for example).Posted 1 year ago # -
As far as I know lasalle Infantry unit depicts (on most occasions) exactly a batallion. As Ignacio says the Napoleonic regiment is usually an administrative unit (not tactical) , only a number of batalions from each regiment would be on campaign.
It is common to find 3/4 battalions from a French regiment in a single battle, all of them forming part of the same brigade and division (tactical units) , English regiments almost every time use only one battalion from each regiment in campaigning so a single lasalle unit would represent the whole regiment for them.
When creating forces I would suggest taking as model an actual division, As a example , If I would construct a core force for peninsula based with your foy division at Salamanca
1st Division: Général de division Foy
Brigade: Général de brigade Chemineau
6th Légère Regiment (2)(46/1,055)
69th Line Regiment (2)(50/1,408)
Brigade: Général de brigade Desgraviers-Berthelot
39th Line Regiment (2)(49/918)
76th Line Regiment (2)(56/1,351)That’s 8 infantry units and an artillery battery. My core list would look like
1st Division: Général de division Foy
6th Légère Regiment/I Veteran
69th Line Regiment/I Veteran
69th Line Regiment/II Veteran
39th Line Regiment/I conscript
39th Line Regiment/II conscript
76th Line Regiment/I conscript
76th Line Regiment/II conscriptFor the eagles/banners question , I would put an eagle in each “/I” (first battalion) unit in the force. Perhaps adding flags to it only in the line ones.
As to wich unit consider as each level, other than taking account of famous units (the 57 terrible, tiralleurs du Po) I would take full regiments at each morale level, for most part choosing legere as “better” than line (this would be not exact but they were thinked –mostly by themselves) as elites.
This is if you are going for competitive playing, if you are trying to depict actual encounters you would need a lot more investigation (and expect non-balanced games)
Posted 1 year ago # -
I am modeling my core unit on the 1st Division, III Corps from the 1809 campaign. The historical unit has three regiments (1 legere, 2 ligne) of three battalions each. This works out very nicely when on defense as having the core unit represent two of the regiments, and using a veteran brigade from the organic list represent the third. The other divisions in this corps have two each of ligne, all with three battalions.
When I am the attacker, I add one battalion to each regiment in the core force, and close my eyes to the loss of historical accuracy. The same with the fourth unit in the veteran brigade.
For my flags and eagles: In the Legere regiment, I put an eagle with the nominal second battalion, and national flags with no eagle in the other battalions. For the ligne regiments, I have one eagle per battalion. I also use two porte-fannions plus one extra figure to make up a full color guard, separate from the battalion companies, plus a separate command group. When mounting them on stands, I arrange the figures so that the command group on one stand is next to the color guard on a different stand when the unit is in line formation.
This arrangement follows the decrees up to Sept 1806. After Dec 1811, the ligne should also be reduced to one eagle in the regiment.
Porte-fannions are part of the color guard of each battalion.
The second (not the first) battalion gets the eagle in a three battlaion regiment, because it would be in the center of the line when on parade.
For the Peninsula I would suggest integrating the conscript battalions with the veteran battalions in the same regiment to more accurately reflect the periodic refreshing of deployed battalions with new drafts from home, if you want to better reflect the historical situation. On the other hand having all of your conscripts in one group and all of your veterans in another group reduces confusion during a game.
Posted 1 year ago # -
So regarding fanions do they replace the eagle in the other battalions of a regiment that don't carry the eagle (remembering my forces will be 1812)?
Thank you vilcum I will look at running exactly what you suggested
1st Division: Général de division Foy
6th Légère Regiment/I Veteran
69th Line Regiment/I Veteran
69th Line Regiment/II Veteran
39th Line Regiment/I conscript
39th Line Regiment/II conscript
76th Line Regiment/I conscript
76th Line Regiment/II conscript
Couple of questions on that. Were the 76th a conscript regiment and the 69th veteran?Posted 1 year ago # -
Kevin, I really have no information if it were 1st or 2nd battalion who really carried the eagle, I readed that napoleon stated it was to be carried by the most crowded –for protection- , can´t see why did you use eagles in all line battalions after 1808, I must suppose it is for visual preference.
(for the record : I am building my own army around the 4 Division IV corps on the same campaign as you)Reading your post with all those color guards and command group I´m quite sure you play at 15 or even 6mm size, at 28mm (as peoples champ and myself are basing our armies) we would need enormous base sizes to put all those castings.
As the integration of conscript battalions with veteran ones in same regiments, it could be appropriate in peninsular war , but as you point I find less confusing managing than in same-quality regiments.
Peoples champ , I would put the fanions as you point (replacing the eagles in non 1st –or 2nd as Kevin points- battalion). In fact I don’t like to put more than one banner in each regiments , as I am initially basing at 3 castings/base (12 casting/battalion) that would seem strange. Marking command bases –not necessary in lasalle- in non-eagle battalions by putting a drummer and officer.
As for the 76th and 69th regiments I don´t really have information as to class each one, I choose the 69th as veteran in the example because doing so it amalgamates all veteran units in chemineau´s brigade (6th Légère Regiment and 69th Line Regiment) –as I pointed in the previous post it´s a common place taking legeres as more veteran than line regiments-
A little research (to avoid things as classifing the 57th as average!) never hurts,I remember having a little list of better/worse than average regiments in old “Empire” rules, but if we want to accommodate to tourney lasalle list our forces we must make some compromises (i.e. Kevin´s idea of making third battalions conscripts seems great here to accommodate a real elite divisions to the rules)
Posted 1 year ago # -
Peoples Champ: Most of the information comes from the Osprey book, Men-at-Arms Series #77. This quotes the various decrees on the subject.
By 1812, infantry regiments (ligne and legere) were reduced to one eagle per regiment, although some regiments ignored the order.
The information about putting it in the second battalion (of three) reflects the fact that when a regiment is on parade, the color guard is in front of the second (center) battalion.
The distribution of flags in 1804 (diamond pattern) was one per battalion. The decree of December 1811 ordered that the tricolor pattern would be used and only one flag per regiment. Osprey points out that delays in manufacturing the tricolor pattern meant that most regiments went into the Russian campaign with the 1804 pattern. I would suspect that conversion to the tricolor pattern would have been delayed in Spain for the same reason. Osprey has no information about what flags were used in the other battalions when the tricolor pattern was issued.
The fannions were not used as flags in the other battalions. I would doubt that anyone would have much emotional attachment to a fannion as opposed to a true flag.
vilcum: You are correct in assuming that I am using 15mm figures with 32 figures per battalion. However, our group has also played using 25mm figures which were originally mounted for Column, Line, Square rules. We use a BW of 2 inches and infantry stands 1.5 inches deep. This results in a 4-stand battalion being 32 figures, as well. 28mm might only have 24 figures on the same sized stand.
Posted 1 year ago # -
So having a fanion by itself in a battalion would be a no?
One battalion in a regiment to carry the eagle and the other battalion nothing?Posted 1 year ago # -
I'm basing my Froggies on Clausel's Division at Salamanca (supported by Boyer's Dragoons).
The veteran battalions have the eagles, and the conscript battalions have fannions - just a conventient way of differentiating them.(There is an account from a British officer at Salamanca, who stated that he was taken prisoner by a French grenadier battalion of tall men wearing bearskin caps, and another British account which refers to the Royal Fusiliers being attacked by a French column of grenadiers - so a unit of French veterans wearing bearskins is not out of the question for Salamanca!!).
Posted 1 year ago # -
That is interesting BGBEM. Thanks for that. Tell me where did you find that account?
Posted 1 year ago # -
If you were to follow the edit of December 1811 with rigor, that wo7uld be the case. However, the Osprey book does state that there were delays in collecting the extra eagles, that some regimental commanders ignored the edict, and that the 1812-style flags were not available in quantity during 1812.
So, for my regiments, I am using the 1809 flags, one per battalion, with just one eagle.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Hi. Only going slightly OT ...
I'm doing Prince Jerome's (6th Div) at Hougoumont 28mm. I'm interested in information on the fannions carried by the 2/1, 3/1, 2/2, 3/3 & 4/2 of the 1st and 2nd Legere.
Looking at Adkin's Waterloo Companion it says "Napoleon decreed that only the 1st battalion (and 1st squadron) of each regiment would carry an Eagle ...
The other battalions or squadrons carried a fannion ... 2nd battalion white, 3rd red, 4th blue, 5th green, 6th yellow, 7th violet and 8th sky blue. They were one metre square, plain, like a tablecloth ... intended to be merely guides or markers ... Commanding Offices defied regulations to introduce more ornate designs and decorations ..."
I think its likely that the Light Regiments followed the Line on this but does anyone know for sure?
Thanks
Posted 1 year ago # -
The light regiments were treated just the same as the line, they were essentially the same and different in name only.
"The second (not the first) battalion gets the eagle in a three battlaion regiment, because it would be in the center of the line when on parade."
That doesn't translate to the Napoleonic era armies - it's more a modern affectation. The regimental eagle and it's attendants were incorporated as a part of the 1st battalion and not a separate colour party.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Thanks Evan.
JamesPosted 1 year ago # -
It appears that we are talking about two different types of fannion.
The type I was referring to was a pennant, one white, one red, which were attached to the spontoons of the second and third eagle bearers in the color guard.
It appears that I was mistaken in tis usage, and that fannions are as described by Borodino, above.
Posted 1 year ago #
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