News questions about French Lists

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News questions about French Lists

(8 posts) (4 voices)

Started 2 years ago by Spearsup
Latest reply from Kevin in San diego

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Spearsup
Member

Hello,

First, tancks to Sam and the great job he realized with Lassale rules ... I try several games and feel the system is the better I have ever played ! But I have real question about some lists I used to play, especially French Late List ... Usually in other rules, these lists are very "wide" : conscrits of course, numerous artillery and few cavalry (1813), but also some very good units like Vetérans (Infantry and Dragons) from Spain, Marines, etc etc wich are not presents in Liberation List ... For instance in 1814, Napoleon call back form Spain 2 divisions (Leval and Boyer), but its impossible to play them. Other example : impossible to mix lancers and light cavalry in the same brigade ? but in 1814 Brigade Dommanget had chasseurs à cheval, hussards and lancers like brigade Jamin like in 1813 brigades Gérard and DOmmanget (2eme cavalry corps) or brigade Maurin ...
Other example ... If I want to play Guard Division in Libération with Guard Cavalry as réserve brigade the rules indicate that you can take 2 Old Guards Cavalry and 2 young Guard Cavalry (mean Guards d'Honneurs ? which are not pursuit cavalry ?) ... Ok ... and éclaireurs : they are listed in French Units Values but are not présent in any Guard cavalry brigade page 108 ... Also theres is no Guard Horse Artillery in Guards Cavalry brigades ? Very Curious !!!
If you take Guard Division and you have to adopt "Send theGuards" rules to win so without Pursuit Cavalry I don't understand how you can win a game ...

In fact, if the rules are really a great success, I really wonder about the lists ...

Cheers

Sp(S)

I have several

Posted 2 years ago #
Sam Mustafa
Le Grand Fromage

I'm not sure I can figure out what your question is.

If you're asking: "Why do the Army Lists not allow every possible historical example of combined units?" then I refer you to the essay on page 97.

If you're specifically asking what the Young Guard cavalry is, then I refer you to the "Notes" on page 108, which read: "The Young Guard Cavalry refers to the Gardes d’Honneur as well as the Young Guard squadrons that were attached to the Old Guard cavalry in 1813."

If you're asking why Guard cavalry isn't Pursuit, it's because it wasn't used to go chasing off across the countryside on recon and scouting missions.

If you're asking why you can't use a battery or two of Guard Horse artillery to support your Young Guard division, that's because I assume that Napoleon has massed it somewhere else, probably in a grand battery, and not parceled it out in small units here and there.

Finally, as a general point:

Of course one can find a huge variation of possible historical combinations in this or any period. The question is, though: if you're designing a play-balanced army building system, then you have to be aware that any options you offer to the players have the potential to become "playing standard." And then players will complain about that. For example: If I allow you to build a French Liberation army based primarily upon the veterans and Marine regiments of Marmont's corps... then most players will do so. (Who wouldn't create his army out of the best possible choices?) And then I'd get daily complaints that the 1813 list was "unrealistic" because everybody simply used it to create Veteran units, and nobody ever played with the Marie-Louises.

For example, on another thread, people are not happy that the French 1813 dragoons haven't been demoted further in quality, because they question the idea of allowing those dragoons to represent the veterans pulled out of Spain:

http://www.sammustafa.com/honour/forum/topic/french-cavalry-ratings-liberation-period

The army builder chapter creates little snapshots of armies that are representative of their era (theatre.) If you want to play with veteran French units in the Army Builder, then use the "Conquest" or "Empire" theatres. The "Liberation" theatre is meant to convey a very different feel.

I specifically designed the army lists to be an alternative middle-ground between the stiff and non-negotiable lists in games like Tactica and Armati, and the free-for-all points systems of many games that allow you to discard "average" troops and pick and choose the elites. (There are more King Tiger tanks and Old Guard infantry on miniature gaming tables than ever served in wars... Not so in Lasalle.)

If you want to play an historical scenario involving the veteran French units in 1813, then by all means do so. But that's not what the Army Builder chapter is for.

Posted 2 years ago #
Kevin in San diego
Member

Sam, I am getting ready to paint up some French Cuirassiers and need to know if the two large units in the Cuirassier brigade are meant to represent one regiment or two?

Posted 2 years ago #
blucher
Member

One regiment.

I think its simply a case of them being so undermanned during the later campaigns.

Posted 2 years ago #
Sam Mustafa
Le Grand Fromage

In 1813 you can do pretty much anything you want with French cavalry. I've seen orders of battle for the Spring campaign in which a cavalry division had 9-10 "regiments," all of which together totaled about 900 men.

Posted 2 years ago #
Kevin in San diego
Member

Okay, since the answer seems variable, would appreciate your comment on the units that I am modeling?

St Sulpice's Division at Eckmuhl (according to Bowden's book on the 1809 campaign):

Four regiments, two brigades:

Clement Brigade: 1st and 5th Cuirassiers, 8 sqns, 1585 present under arms.
Guiton Brigade: 10th and 11th Cuirassiers, 8 sqns, 1658 present under arms.

So, it seems that each historical brigade would equal one LaSalle cuirassier brigade and each regiment represents one historical regiment.

Each historical regiment numbers about the same as a historical infantry battalion (LaSalle: 4 bases), we fudge a bit to make each LaSalle cuirassier regiment 6 bases by saying that 700-800 cuirassiers occupy 50% more frontage that 700-800 infantrymen.

Just thinking out loud, here.

Does that track with your thinking?

Posted 2 years ago #
Sam Mustafa
Le Grand Fromage

For 1809, yes.

Posted 2 years ago #
Kevin in San diego
Member

Excellent!!

Now I can sleep at night. Thanks.

Anal Kevin in San Diego.

Posted 2 years ago #

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