Is it possible to have a unit simply do a 90 degree turn? The unit remains in place and just pivots so the previous flank becomes the front. If yes is it a maneuver?
Thanks in advance.
rules question - 90 degree turn
(23 posts) (10 voices)-
Posted 1 year ago #
-
Simple answer - no.
To move to face flank you would need to wheel 90 degrees. Which means that the unit is not then in the same position as it was, as it is now further forward by the length of its frontage. Hope that makes sense?
Some very handy wheeling gauges can be found on this forum if you do a search.
Posted 1 year ago # -
thanks.... makes sense. Also would make different people as file leaders which would be confusing from a marching perspective as well.
Posted 1 year ago # -
I agree with Alan.
I discovered this little secret recently when trying my first game (solo). In the course of trying to figure out how to get a battallion of French infantry from being flanked by Austrian Uhlhans it dawned on me that there is no maneuver that allows you to simply change your facing. Even a formation change requires one base to stay put -and thus changing facing of the entire unit is impossible.
When you come to realize how constrained the movement is it 1) encourages you to actually use march column much more often than in other games and 2) encourages you to be more cautious in your movements.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Yup. Nothing more embarrassing than launching a furious, thrusting attack only to discover that an enemy unit has gotten behind you! There goes your artillery support! Doh!
Posted 1 year ago # -
We debated this at cold wars as the rules don't specify if you can change facing or not. I allowed a unit to change formation into a column pointing 90 degrees the other way and move from there so one base does not move but it does change facing.
Not much use if you are being flanked as that is your formation change moved up but useful for a more rapid redeployment in a subsequent turn. As this is consistent with drill for the period and faster that forming a column behind it made sense to me but Sam can rule on it.
Changing file leaders is part of the organization and drill of a Napoleonic unit - that is why NCOs are placed at opposite corners so it should work.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Well page 25 says the base around which the formation change is made may not move at all. If it is now allowed to pivot that is a considerable change and it would probably best be presented in clarifications.
Otherwise I follow the same rules mentioned before, no 90 deg face change, only wheeling.
(I believe changing the combat front of a unit was more complex than doing it with our geometrically different representations of those units, the unit would actually have to reorganize the position of the companies )Other rules also don't allow the 90 deg turn with the exception of line into column on the flank ( which is in the optional rules for Lasalle, and I do use that one myself )
cheers
FranciscoPosted 1 year ago # -
Tod
'the rules don't specify if you can change facing or not'
The rules don't specify whether you can do a lot of things or not. However, if rules had to specify all the things that you can't do they would be very long indeed. As a result i think the usual convention is that you can do what is explicitly stated as being possible. I don't think you argue that because the rules are silent on a particular point then you can do it anyway.
Remember the question was about what the rules allow not what might have been possible in reality.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Hey Tod,
I was there with you at ColdWars. Good game I had fun. I think a units frontage would be different by turning left or right by 90 degrees. I don't believe that columns were square in shape but rather narrow and long.
Posted 1 year ago # -
That is exactly what I am saying. Turn every base in a line 90 degress and you have a columns and vice versa. For an assault column no way but for a line the drill of the period covered the maneuver.
Posed a different way do you think it is harder to line up behind a base or turn to the right or left and hve 4th company rather than 1st as the leader? My feeling is that the turn to the right represents a well known way to move a line into a column (or vice versa) and deploy it.
Posted 1 year ago # -
If your talking about game mechanics. The bases aren't square so a unit facing north, for arguments sake, has a different frontage if it just turns 90 degrees to left or right. So I guess your saying it could be a maneuver of sorts since the bases wouldn't interfere with anyother unit when the maneuver is complete.
From a real world perspective I think it's much more tricky. When I reenact AWI the front we want to present to the enemy or lead the column is maneuvered with primarily with wheels.
http://www.napolun.com/mirror/napoleonistyka.atspace.com/infantry_tactics_4.htm
look at the above website, scroll down and see if you still feel the same.
Isn't it in the rules that changing facing, which is what we are trying to do, must be done using of one unit which must have one of it's corners remain in place? I'm not allowed to bring the rules to work anymore so I don't remember.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Actually the bases are square - if you play 28mm with the recommended size!
But I think Sam's whole point is it's not that simple IRL - it's one of the hardest manoeuvres to pull off tidily. And I thought it was well and effectively covered by the Advanced/Optional Rule for it.
Otherwise it sounds a bit like a desire for a 'cheese' move - perhaps even yet another case of wargamers thinking only in terms of the markers on their table and not what it's really simulating IRL (one of the biggest issues with 90% of rules sets)... ;-)
Posted 1 year ago # -
If you want to be a tad "cheesy" you form Square, then on your next turn form on the side of the sqaure you want your new facing to be.
Or just wheel as that does not look nearly as silly as the above system.
Posted 1 year ago # -
I re-enacted Napoleonic French, ACW and AWI in the past so I think I get where you are going Michael. You and I are talking similar things I think although admittedly we only got to battalion sizes at big events.
Think about deployment to a line - the lead companies oblique to the right and left where the rear company fills in. Arguably the formation change from line to column is backwards in Lasalle as the lead company should advance while the rear companies fill in - all elements should move based on the movement of the lead element but I rationalize that with the extra movement allowed at the end.
Your point is well take about the bases (mine are square but that is beside the point - they should be super thin using 2mm figures to be correct). However would not an individual wheel by each company to the left or right form a company wide column? Then if you did it via peleton (which I know is an arbitrary size but bear with with me) you have a column facing 90 degrees.
To be clear I am talking about a line deploying into a column to the right or left, no other formation change. I still think it is a valid movement given the drill of the period.
Posted 1 year ago # -
If the turn benefits my armies then I am ALL for it!!! but if the enemy gets the advantage, well then.... (smiling)
Posted 1 year ago # -
I agree with Alan, there is no way the rules can list all the things you can not do. The only way in the rules to turn 90 degrees, that I can find, is to wheel. I have used the wheeling gauges put up on the the forum to do this and they work quite well.
I am not sure what all this drill stuff is about, but we are playing with little men on a grass mat, and I believe I would have difficulty accepting an alternate way to interpret the rules.
Of course, among gentleman, if there is mutual agreement, I suppose you can do whatever you want.
John
Posted 1 year ago # -
"We debated this at cold wars as the rules don't specify if you can change facing or not. I allowed a unit to change formation into a column pointing 90 degrees the other way and move from there so one base does not move but it does change facing. "
I don't see how you can reasonably interpret the rules as allowing what you propose.
The rules set forth in detail what units can do by way of movement: wheel, oblique, about face, flank move, retrograde, interpenetrage (all classed as maneuvers) The rules specify that otherwise a unit moves straight forward.
The rules also specify in detail how a unit changes formation. Since one base must stay put and not move, witht the excetion of squares, there is no way to change the unit's facing.
To allow a unit to "change facing" you would have to conclude that Sam simply forgot to include it in the rules. Given the detail with which the maneuvers and formation changes are explained this is very unlikely.
Of course, people can change the rules to fit their tastes. But there doesn't seem to me to be any room for debate insofar as the "Rules as Written" are concerned.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Your point is taken about what the rules say and if they are specific that it doesn't move then that is what they say.
Still won't stop me allowing it when I GM though.
Posted 1 year ago # -
I agree with Alan, there is no way the rules can list all the things you can not do.
Yep - agree 100% with that sentiment - that's just crazy logic (for any ruleset) to say you can do it because the rules don't say you can't! I kinda missed the stress on that earlier in the thread! :-o
Posted 1 year ago # -
But if I read the posts correctly Tod is allowing the line to change into march column on the flank. That is already an optional rule so I don't see any problem with using it, it is indeed something allowed by Sam.
I allow that as well as I think it is a valid optional rule that makes good sense. In fact I like most of the optional rules.
cheers
FranciscoPosted 1 year ago # -
Francisco
I usually play with all the optional rules in force. I think you are referring to the "Forming Line by Platoons" optional rule. However, I think you may have misread the rule. It allows a March Column to form a Line. It does not allow a Line to form a March Column.
There is no rule - core or optional - that allows a Line or Column to turn 90 degrees to flank other than a wheel.
I can't believe there are so many posts about something, that rules wise, is quite clear cut :-)
Posted 1 year ago # -
Interesting, I had not seen that.
Strange that the drill/rule would allow it one way and not the other, but I am sure who knows there is always something that one hasn't read or so.
I had missed that :)
Probably because I've never seen somebody attempt that reverse option :) so I never checked it :)There is always something that one misses, just the other day I realized I had always overlooked that amateur troops cannot actually do oblique movement !! One of those things that one reads without paying attention !!
thanks for the heads up...
Francisco
Posted 1 year ago # -
Your rule suggestion sounds like a maneuver from Field of Glory (another great game!)
Posted 1 year ago #
Reply
You must log in to post.