Greetings!
The new downloads look quite exciting - I can hardly wait to see the finished product! Having looked at the Prussian Army Lists, I have a few questions regarding the Liberation and Hundred Days line-up.
1) I appreciate that "Brigade" is a generic term in the game's context, however I was wondering where the third battalion of the Line regiment had got to - is it the Fusiliers, represented by the 2 SK bases?
2) I seem to recall that in 1815, the cuirassiers were kept at home together with the grenadiers and guards. If Elite Infantry are limited to the Liberation theatre, should Cuirassiers be available as a Hundred Days reserve brigade?
3) From the "moment in battle" concept, shouldn't there be a provision for some Russian allies during the Liberation ? Weren't there even permanent mixed formations under Prussian command, e.g. Prussian infantry with Russian cavalry or cossack support? - Apologies if this was covered in the Russian list, which I missed.
4) I'm not sure I understand the "Abteilung" label on p.111, which does not seem to appear in the Lists themselves
5) The reserve regiments, which had been serving since Spring 1813, had been taken into the line by the Hundred days campaign. Was their performance by then any different from the senior regiments, to justify their being classed as "Amateur" still?
Justwondering mind you, all of this has probably been pored over, and found to have excellent reasons...
Sample Prussian List
(21 posts) (9 voices)-
Posted 2 years ago #
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Hi Musketeer,
If you haven't already read p.97, then I'd urge you to do so, as that addresses many of the questions you raise here about army list organization. (You can find it in the HOW THE ARMY BUILDER WORKS file under "Downloads.")
Essentially: all unit information is provided for a nation, in each period/theatre it fought, for those of us who are making historical scenarios. And if you're making an historical scenario, then obviously you'll want to get the right number of battalions per regiment, per brigade, etc. And you'll replicate whatever military-political decisions resulted in allied or coalition armies being assembled the way they were on that day of battle. (Which may or may not bear any resemblance to their theoretical or paper strengths, in any event... you'll just use the OB for that battle.)
But if you're playing a fictional battle for "pick-up game" purposes, and using the Army Builder to do so, then there are certain arbitrary limitations I placed on the "armies" in the interest of play-balancing them against each other for a quick game. It's based on the history, as closely as possible, but the goal of a tourney-style army list is to present a balanced game.
Personally, I think that wargamers have always taken theoretical or paper strengths too much at face value, anyway, and that any glance at historical OBs will show regiments with one, two, three, or four battalions, or converged units, or units detached or amalgamated, or left behind as garrisons.... I honestly don't think that the Army Builder is much of a stretch at all. If a regiment normally had three battalions but only has two present at this battle... C'est la guerre! It happened all the time.
But anyway, you can read all about my philosophy of army-list creation on page 97.
As for whether a Prussian army list should have Russian allied troops... If we were playing at an army level, moving whole corps and divisions around, then Yes, surely. But since your little "army" in LASALLE is just one division (or in the Prussian case, a brigade), then most likely not. I'm not aware of any cases in which Russian troops were integrated *within* a Prussian infantry brigade.... But if it did happen, then that's something you could do when creating that historical scenario.
[4) I'm not sure I understand the "Abteilung" label on p.111, which does not seem to appear in the Lists themselves]
It's explained in the "Notes on This Army" (every army list has a section for this), on page 113.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Many thanks Sam for taking the time, at this busy stage, to explain it all in detail!
I had read through p.97, but obviously underestimated the degree of abstraction implied in the competition lists. It all makes sense now, and I'd have to agree with your views on individual battalions being detached on any given day. I shall now get on with my painting while you're off to the printers...Posted 2 years ago # -
Hi Sam, congratulations on your recent efforts! I too am looking forward to buying and playing your latest rules, especially as the rules appear to cover smaller actions at the battalion/cavalry regiment level, as well as the possibility of tournament play. Major kudos to you.
Sam wrote: "I'm not aware of any cases in which Russian troops were integrated *within* a Prussian infantry brigade".
I have read of numerous situations where multi-national troops were integrated within a brigade, for numerous campaigns.
As an example, Rembow's Russo-Prussian force launched a pre-mature "surprise attack" on June 4th, 1807 just prior to the start of the planned Russian offensive pre-Friedland. Dokhturov issued orders stopping the June 4th attack, so Rembow waited till the following day to attack Bernadotte's bridgehead at Spanden, along the Passarge River. In addition to the 12 battalions of the Sievsk, Perm, Kaluga and Azov regiments, Rembow had 2 regiments of Prussian cavalry (10 squadrons of the 6th or Ziethen Dragoons and 5 squadrons of the 7th or Baczko Dragoons), as well as 2 6-gun batteries of Prussian artillery (1 horse, 1 foot) supporting the assault on the French bridgehead (behind redoubts). From my reading of German sources, the Prussian cavalry is integrated in a small brigade with the 3 battalions of the Russian Azov regiment - all commanded by Prussian General Prittwitz, while the other 9 Russian battalions from Russian 5th Division are under the command of General Warneck.
As for the French order of battle, well the 17th Dragoons and a foot battery of 7 guns were attached to Villatte's 3rd Division, I Corps, so whether the Dragoons/artillery were integrated at the divisional level or with Frere's or Girard's brigades (4 battalions each) depends on the histories you read or how you want to simulate the engagement.
My point is Musketier, and others like myself, can look forward to opportunities to field multi-national forces, assuming we're following pseudo-historical orders of battle. There is certainly nothing preventing anyone who wants, to use their models accordingly, and integrete them in a pick up game too!
Cordially,
Michael
Posted 2 years ago # -
Hi Michael -
If you're referring to Friedland, then that's before the Prussians created their "brigade" structure. When I wrote: "I'm not aware of any cases in which Russian troops were integrated *within* a Prussian infantry brigade" I was referring to the 1813-15 army. I'm aware of certain special conglomerations like the Russo-German Legion, but I didn't want to make the exception the norm.
Cavalry might be a different story, for although no examples spring readily to mind, if we're looking at all-cavalry corps in the later war years, I'm pretty sure I do remember some mixed Russo-Prussian forces, BUT... again, I'd have to check to see if, for example, a Prussian cavalry regiment was truly mixed *within* a Russian cavalry brigade. I suspect it's much more often the case that it constitutes a different brigade in the same division.
As for the French, you have many options to mix and match Minor Allied forces on that list, especially as the wars go on, because they did indeed mix multi-national forces within brigades. In most Lasalle games, however, this will take the form of you having a French infantry brigade, for example, supported by a Bavarian brigade, etc.
Finally, as a general point: When I design a wargame I always take care to ensure that the exception does not become the norm. Because it's just one of MUSTAFA'S LAWS OF WARGAMING* that whatever is permitted by the rules will become the norm, and used by most players. Thus, if you give infantry a movement of 12 because they might move *up to* that quickly... then they'll move 12 in every single game. And if you allow players to put one Neapolitan cavalry regiment with the Imperial Guard because it happened once... Then it will happen every game. I decided, for example, not to allow the French in the Peninsular Theatre to have any Cuirassier regiments, even though I know that Suchet had one from 1811-on. Because if I allowed it, based on that exception, every French player would have Cuirassiers in the Peninsular.
* Yes, I just made that up, but it has hithero been known as "The King Tiger Rule."
Posted 2 years ago # -
Hi Sam,
I wasn't trying to set a precedent that the exception needed more attention. I agree with your philosophy and confess that I missed the part focusing on 1813-1815 only.
I narrow mindedly focused on the question as to whether it ever occurred, which I believe it does from my readings. You're right though - it doesn't justify its own set of rules.
Cheers,
Michael
Posted 2 years ago # -
Sam,
I see the sample Prussian list does not show a listing for the year 1812. Being very new to this period and still deciding which army to start with, I wondered if the Prussian troops who invaded Russia are covered in the generic force lists. I know from a bit of digging today that Prussia did send a fair number of troops as part of the X corps with the French. Are these troops covered and available in the French lists or is this one of the special case which is not covered by the generic force lists?
Either way, would I be out of line in assuming the existing Prussian 1813 list would be a good basis/start for these troops?
Thanks in advance,
Mark
Posted 2 years ago # -
Hi Mark -
If you go to the "Downloads" section and read the "How the Army Builder Works" free pages, you'll see this explained.
As for creating an historical scenario involving Yorck's corps in 1812, yes, you could use the 1813 values.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Looking at he list on the downloads page, is the 100 days list correct?
What are the 2 Sk units? Is the list really only 2 units in defence (the 2 SK units and a foot Battery?
thanks
JP
Posted 2 years ago # -
My mistake I have re-read the how the list works.
For Liberation or 100 Days I get the same list;
2 Infantry
3 Reserve
2 Landwehr
1 Landwehr Cav
+
2 SK bases
1 Foot BTY
1 Reserve
1 LandwehrRight?
Posted 2 years ago # -
That's right. I misread the list the same way before I noticed the box spanned two columns.
Posted 2 years ago # -
For the Prussian army lists, there is mention made under the unit values area of Uhlans, and also in the "Prussian Notes", but I didn't see them listed in the lists themselves. So how does somebody work such into the lists, or is this only there for historical scenarios?
Posted 1 year ago # -
I have the ratings for them in the Unit Values on page 112, but I resisted creating an "Uhlan Brigade" support choice because... well, there was no such thing. The Uhlans were invariably dispersed among other cavalry with no rhyme or reason: 2 Hussar units and an Uhlan unit in this brigade... a Dragoon here, an Uhlan there...
I suppose it might be a fun Optional Rule to allow a Prussian player to substitute one of his Hussars for an Uhlan, if he wants.
The one that gave me the most concern was the Landwehr Uhlans. Some Landwehr cavalry had lances, some didn't. And again there was no rhyme or reason as to when they might. I finally decided against creating a "Landwehr Lancer" unit for the Army Builder, simply because I felt that giving them the extra 2 dice against an infantry square was an exaggeration of their capabilities.
Posted 1 year ago # -
When reading and seeing it wasn't covered in the lists, not that I'm advocating that it should be, I went back and reread everything in the Army Builder general rules and then reveiwed the Prussian rules and lists to see if I had missed something.
It occured to me that perhaps something had been meant for the light cav brigade or the mixed "abteilung" cav. Yet I can understand the issue over the Landwehr cav, and perhaps one extra die would be ok?
I do like the idea of exchanging 1 of the Hussars for a Ulhan (with the plus 2 dice), yet I suspect this goes along with the idea that if it was in the rules, then many would do it, and it really wasn't the norm. Maybe this is the same with the Cavalry Abteilung as well?
Posted 1 year ago # -
Could someone please confirm for me the composition of the Prussian Artillery Batteries at the time of Leipzig (eg. Brigade Foot Battery:- was it a) 8x 6pdrs, or b) 6x 6pdrs + 2x 7pdr Hows?).
The reason I ask this, is that on the napoleonistka.atspace.com website, it has the Brigade Foot Batteries as 8x 6pdrs, but other sources I have seen have them at 6x 6pdrs + 2x 7pdr Hows.
Same goes for Horse (8x 6pdrs, or 6x 6pdr + 2x 7pdr Hows) and Heavy Foot (8x 12pdr, or 6x 12pdrs + 2x 10pdr Hows) Batteries.Paul
Posted 1 year ago # -
Paul,
Officially all Prussian Batteries were 6 x guns & 2 x Howitzer.
According to the OOB in Hofschroers Landwehr & Landsturm book there were some exceptions e.g. 8 x 6pdr, 8 x gun & 2 x how.
IIRC though all the exceptions were in reserve artillery batteries so Brigade Foot Batteries were 6 x 6pdr & 2 x how. I & II Corps had all Prussian guns, in III Corps most were Prussian, with some British and the 12pdrs captured French. IV Corps mainly British.Is there is a particular unit you wish to represent?
Nigel
Posted 1 year ago # -
Cheers Nigel
5th Brigade in 3rd Corps is my preference, with a Cavalry Bde (3x Dragon Regts + an attached Horse Bty) and a 12pdr Bty as extras. So we are talking about the 10th Foot, 5th Horse and 4th Foot (Hvy) Batteries. All these are Regular Batteries, I believe.
Will possibily add the 6th Bde later (16th Foot Battery).Paul
Posted 1 year ago # -
Paul,
A fine choice, will check the book tonight and post back.
Nigel
Posted 1 year ago # -
OOB states 'Except where stated otherwise, all artillery batteries consist of six cannon and two howitzers of Prussian manufacture'
Notes relating to your selected batteries below;
6pdr Foot #10 consisting of six heavy 6 pdrs. and two howitzers
12pdr Foot #4 consisting of French cannon captured at HalberstadtLooking in Digby Smith's book on the Prussian Army the heavy 6pdrs had longer barrels but still bronze. I don't think you will be able to depict a specific pattern of Prussian gun so the standard 6pdr from your preferred manufacturer would be the way to go.
With the 12pdr #4 it is not clear if the battery included howitzers as the comment states cannon perhaps it was 8 x 12pdr.I have to add that I have not seen this information anywhere else, Hofschroer lists German General Staff as main source with additional info from Plotho and Quistorp of which I have only seen Plotho's oobs.
HTH
Nigel
Posted 1 year ago # -
Cheers, yep it has.
At 6mm, I doubt that the difference in 6pdrs will matter, and my eyes ain't as good as what they were.
As for the 12pdrs, I'll take them as 8x 12pdrs.Just have to start buying, painting and basing now.
Paul
Posted 1 year ago # -
Hi guys
Just a quickie, how would you do a unit of, say, 2x Sqns of Hussars and 1x Sqns of Landwehr cavalry? (Ex. 12th Brigade's cavalry at Leipzig:- 1st Silesian Hussars (2x Sqns) and 2nd Silesian Landwehr (1x Sqn).
My guess would be: 1x small unit of Hussars.
I don't know if this has been asked before, but I could not find an answer.Paul
Posted 10 months ago #
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