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1. michaelk
   Member

   Weirdo question of the day.

   My poor Saxon line infantry were attacked by French Lancers. The Saxon line were behind a wall and chose to form square. During the following melee a question came up about getting the cover modifier. The idea being that cavalry is swarming over the wall and riding around the square looking for openings to exploit.

   I haven't seen it in the rule book, which means it is on page something or other and I must stop drinking while lookng for rules or I have added something truly unique to the universe.

   Thoughts?

   Thanks in advance.

   Posted 1 year ago #

2. Sam Mustafa
   Le Grand Fromage

   Your opponent is right. There is no "vs Cover" penalty for cavalry charging infantry, rather only an "in Bad Terrain" penalty, which doesn't apply here.

   Posted 1 year ago #

3. cam_millar
   Member

   Page 31 says cavalry cannot charge a defender in hard cover. Page 21 says that a wall is hard cover. So the cavalry cannot charge.

   For the pedants - page 21 also says that a unit is never "in" an obstacle (wall), but is "behind" it. Cavalry cannot charge a unit "in" hard cover, but it says nothing about a unit "behind" hard cover. So the cavalry can charge.

   Cam

   Posted 1 year ago #

4. michaelk
   Member

   ahhh it makes sense now Cam..... :) I would imagine by in hard cover they are referring to towns etc., but I just read the line pg. 31 "not in buildings or hard cover.." Charging and meleeing(?) over walls, while not ideal, seems possible.

   But Sam's answer makes me wonder if I am playing the rules correctly.

   Saxon line infantry behind a wall in square, receiving the charge. 8 dice for bases, no other basic modifiers apply. Next I would look at the combat advantages and from the infantry's perspective I would go to the inf vs. cavalry charge which has a +2 for cover. No dice halves aply to the infantry. So it is either 8 or 10 dice for the infantry depending on the vs. cover issue.

   The cavalry were french lancers - 8 for bases, 2 for higher espirit, 2 for lancers and then halves for vs. square. so 6 dice?

   Which is a clumsy way of saying - while the cavalry is not penalized with a vs. cover, the infantry may be eligible for a plus 2 bonus - depending on the wall ruling.

   By the way as always thanks a thousand times over for the quick and thoughtful responses.

   Posted 1 year ago #

5. cam_millar
   Member

   Personally, I would not allow cavalry to charge infantry behind a stone wall. I think the wall is hard cover, and would argue p31 implies that cavalry can't charge hard cover. But I am not 100% sure about this.

   If you did allow the charge, then yes, the infantry would get +2 for cover. So that would make it 10 v 6 dice.

   Cam

   Posted 1 year ago #

6. steadythebuffs
   Member

   Hi,

   I might be completely wrong but....

   ...surely the combat doesn't happen because cavalry cannot charge a unit in hard cover.

   On page 21 the relevant paragraph is :-

   Finally, there are terrain features considered Obstacles. An obstacle is some sort of linear impediment (a wall, a hedgerow, a ditch etc). A unit is never "in" an obstacle, but may be "behind" one, and thus get cover against combat or fire coming across that obstacle.

   In the terrain table on the same page the only features to provide hard cover are stone buildings and wall/entrenchments.

   On page 31 "Cavalry may charge any unit type as long as the defender is not in buildings or hard cover".

   If that statement only referred to units that were defending "in" the terrain providing the cover then that would just be the stone buildings. This would make "or hard cover" completely redundant.

   The wall counts as hard cover to the infantry because the cavalry attack is coming across the wall or at least I assume that this is the case because of the comment about the cavalry swarming over the wall. This means that the cavalry cannot charge the Saxon unit.

   Doesn't it......?

   Thanks, Kevin.

   Posted 1 year ago #

7. cam_millar
   Member

   Yes, but I ran the pedantic (and I hope wrong) counter-argument above:

   For the pedants - page 21 also says that a unit is never "in" an obstacle (wall), but is "behind" it. Cavalry cannot charge a unit "in" hard cover, but it says nothing about a unit "behind" hard cover. So the cavalry can charge.

   Personally, I would not allow the cavalry to charge.

   Cam

   Posted 1 year ago #

8. steadythebuffs
   Member

   Hi Cam,

   We don't allow cavalry to charge in that circumstance either.

   Thanks, Kevin.

   Posted 1 year ago #

9. Ashur_dan
   Member

   Hi All

   What does the Great Redoubt count as? Hard Cover?

   regards

   Stephen

   Posted 1 year ago #

10. cam_millar
    Member

    P21 says that a "hasty earthworks" is soft cover. So if that the grand redoubt is such a thing, it can be charged.

    Cam

    Posted 1 year ago #

11. vilcum
    Member

    According to the rules there is no doubt, as Sam himself points it is a legal charge.

    For the various home rules, as allways there are multiple opinions - in my own group there are people who wouldnt allow for it- personally I think considering an stone fence -that is a wall lower than a man, who allows fire over it without preparation- impregnable to cavalry is too much an exageration. Not all farmers are Vauvan

    As debated in previous threads, for historical scenarios a more detailed terrain clasification is of much use, but in the common AB battle that rule would probably lead to a siege-like warfare where you will allways see at least 12 BW of stone fence in every encounter.

    Posted 1 year ago #

12. Pickton
    Member

    Isn't it a little easier than that?

    Infantry formed square because there were mortally afraid of cavalry getting to flank and rear. A wall that is low enough to cross or fire over offers no protection against this.

    Regards

    Peter

    Posted 1 year ago #

13. Peoples_Republic
    Member

    Just asking the question would a square in reality get effective cover from a wall?
    one side would have to be right up against it at least.
    Most of the time, well with experienced cavalry they didn't do a full on charge right at a square. They would go buzzing around them looking for weakeness.
    cheers.

    Posted 1 year ago #

14. michaelk
    Member

    That has always been my understanding.. the cavalry swirling around the square. One thing I left out of the Saxon question was that when forming square parts of the wall were abandoned, due to the forming of square. My thinking was that square was safer than a lousy wall. Not sure if it matters.

    Posted 1 year ago #

15. seldon
    Member

    Ok, now I am a bit confused.

    I was playing it like Cam's original understanding that cavalry cannot charge from the front a unit behind a wall that provides hard cover. I see that other people have a different interpretation.

    I can see either interpretation as being valid, my view of the game was always trying to follow the level of abstraction intended by the author in that a charge from the front might easily mean cavalry going around it to attack from the sides and so.

    But now I am not sure, what is the intended interpretation for the rule, is cavalry supposed to be able to charge infantry behind a hard cover obstacle and the rule in question only prevents cavalry from charging infantry in town bases that are hard cover ?

    thanks
    Francisco

    Posted 1 year ago #

16. vilcum
    Member

    The first answer in this same thread is from the designer himself. That answer left quite clear that the correct interpretation of the "rules as written" is : cavalry CAN charge throught an obstacle.

    All other positions are home rules, proposed changes, etc...

    Posted 1 year ago #

17. Mike48
    Member

    Hello,

    I don't think that cavalry can charge throught an obstacle!

    My father (in 1937) was soldier in the Belgian Cavalry in the "Ier Lancier".
    He told me that when the horses were in line and heard the sound of the clarion for the charge you have one think to do: let the horses go straight ahead. So I think no much maneuvers are possible when you charge with horses.

    I continue to play Lasalle in solo or with friends and we enjoy the rules very much...Lasalle's rules are great!

    Mike.

    PS Rafael and John I continue to appreciate very much your AAR.

    Posted 1 year ago #

18. michaelk
    Member

    Vilcum,

    Of course you're right as Sam says - so the rule go. I ask for clarification from him but also to read the thoughts of others, which I often find very interesting and informative.

    Posted 1 year ago #

19. vilcum
    Member

    michaelk @ I like very much the exchange , even personally support much of the proposed alternatives , I was only remarking the rule as written as it seems more than some contributors thoughth the charge was not allowed by the rules.

    Very interested indeed in a posible response by Sam in steadythebuffs new thread http://www.sammustafa.com/honour/forum/topic/terrain-clarification-especially-obstacles

    Posted 1 year ago #

20. michaelk
    Member

    cam_miller states - If you did allow the charge, then yes, the infantry would get +2 for cover. So that would make it 10 v 6 dice.

    If the thought is that the cavalry swarms over the walls, other arguments about feasability suspended for the sake of this question, would the +2 still apply?

    Yes because a portion of the cavalry is still fighting over the wall?

    Or no because by swarming over the wall, most of the cavalry would engage from the unprotected sides?

    This presumes that there is room on one or both sides of the square to allow the unit to fit?

    Posted 1 year ago #

21. seldon
    Member

    vilcum, the answer was with regards to cover in inf vs cav. Cam's post shows how particular the interpretation has to be to allow cav to charge through a wall.
    There is no clear reference to the rule in page 31, and it does seem redundant if it was only meant for town bases.

    As I said I am fin either way, but I am not as sure as you are on what is the original and official interpretation of the rule. What kind of other hard cover can you be in that is not buildings ?

    just trying to make sure we play it right, beyond what any home rules anyone might be playing...

    thanks
    Francisco

    Posted 1 year ago #

22. Alan Charlesworth
    Member

    Page 31 "Cavalry may charge any unit type, as long as the defender is not in buildings or hard cover."

    Perhaps this was meant to read "Cavalry may charge any unit type, as long as the defender is not in buildings or behind hard cover."

    Page 21 - the Terrain Table lists a wall as hard cover.

    therefore if the modification was made to the sentence on page 31, cavalry cannot charge a unit directly behind a wall.

    If as Sam seemed to say in post 2, that cavalry can charge a wall, then there is still a problem with the rules because what is the hard cover that cavalry can't charge that is distinct from a building that is referred to on page 31?

    More clarification please Sam.

    Posted 1 year ago #

23. steadythebuffs
    Member

    Hi Alan,

    Your post if virtually identical to mine of three days ago so I agree with you. I hope that some clarification is forthcoming which is why I raised the other post about obstacles in general. When I said in an earlier post that we don't allow cavalry to charge a unit behind a hill this wasn't as a house rule but rather how our club thought the main rules were written. We didn't think there was any confusion at all - until this post!

    Thanks, Kevin.

    Posted 1 year ago #

24. Alan Charlesworth
    Member

    Hi Kevin

    Yes I was playing it the same way as you before this thread and thought I was playing it correctly????

    Posted 1 year ago #

25. Peoples_Republic
    Member

    I thought the origional context of this post was about, if squares can occupy walls in the first place.

    and if they cant what do u do about the wall if theres no room for the cavalry to cross?

    Sam said
    ""Your opponent is right. There is no "vs Cover" penalty for cavalry charging infantry, rather only an "in Bad Terrain" penalty, which doesn't apply here. ""

    so i take it from that the infantry in square are not in cover so not up against the wall.
    so the cavarly have to stop at the wall to cross ? Then attack next turn ?

    Posted 1 year ago #

26. cam_millar
    Member

    Personally I would not read too much into Sam's original reply to this thread. He was not asked directly if cavalry can charge infantry behind a wall. He was asked if infantry get a cover bonus against cavalry, and said (correctly) there is no cover modifier for infantry v cavalry combat. He did not directly say cavalry could charge a wall.

    If this was a Phil Barker set of rules I would say cavalry could charge, no question: "in" and "behind" are different words with different meanings defined in the rules. Barker is known for writing with precision and shortness over readibiilty. Players have to carefully parse every word to work out the rule.

    But Sam generally writes in a more obvious way - say what the rule is, say it again, then show them with a picture. Maybe here we are supposed to derive the subtle difference between "in" and "behind". But I am not sure.

    Personally, I will wait for a direct answer on whether cavalry can charge a wall (and if they can, what happens if the infantry are placed 1mm behind the wall in either the core or optional obstacle rules).

    Cam

    Posted 1 year ago #

27. Alan Charlesworth
    Member

    This thread needs to be kept at the top of the forum list until Sam gives a more comprehensive answer.

    I think that the problem really stems from the fact that both the original post and Sam's answer are not worded very clearly. We are then struggling to give clear meaning to those imprecise words.

    For instance in the original question are we talking about a unit that is touching the wall along its entire length before forming square? Is the subsequent square in full contact with the wall? Is there a gap between the wall and its starting and finishing formation? If so how deep? What if the wall doesn't fully cover the frontage of the two units? If there is a gap between the defender and the wall, are the basic or optional rules being used for movement over obstacles? Does the infantry straddle the wall before or after formation change because the optional obstacle movement rule is in play? - Well you get the idea! There are many variables all with different possible answers that would each be correct in their specific context.

    In Sam's reply he says "There is no "vs Cover" penalty for cavalry charging infantry, rather only an "in Bad Terrain" penalty, which doesn't apply here." If this is a statement about the modifiers to the attacking cavalry unit then of course it seems correct.

    The cover modifier only applies to the defender not the attacker. The specific 'Inf v Cav +2 for Cover' is a defender bonus.

    The bad terrain modifier only applies to a Regular attacker who is in or who is attacking rough terrain. Assuming the wall isn't in a wood then there is no Bad Terrain -2 for the attacker.

    Cam

    "He was asked if infantry get a cover bonus against cavalry, and said (correctly) there is no cover modifier for infantry v cavalry combat."

    So how and when does the +2 for cover that specifically applies to infantry defending against cavalry come into play? Perhaps you meant to say 'cavalry get no cover bonus against infantry". If "there is no cover modifier for infantry v cavalry combat" then what is the section on page 56 there for?

    Posted 1 year ago #

28. cam_millar
    Member

    Yep, that was me paraphrasing Sam rather than quoting him, and getting it totally wrong!

    To be precise, Sam's statement: There is no "vs Cover" penalty for cavalry charging infantry is correct. But it left some things out:

    1) The cavalry may, or may not, be able to charge.
    2) If the cavalry can charge, the infantry will get a +2 cover bonus for the wall.

    Cam

    Posted 1 year ago #

29. Sam Mustafa
    Le Grand Fromage

    If I understand the question (now)... you're asking if cavalry can charge over a wall, in order to attack an enemy square, right?

    The answer in that case is: Yes. There's nothing in the rules that forbids it.

    Again, I recommend using the Optional Rule for Walls and Obstacles, so that if the wall is at a weird angle to the square, or if the square is half an inch behind the wall, etc., then you don't have any questions about where exactly the cavalry unit is.

    Posted 1 year ago #

30. Alan Charlesworth
    Member

    I am starting to think that English must be the most useless language in the world for conveying precise meaning!

    My reading of your answer Sam is that you are referring to a situation where there is a gap between the formed square and the wall? In which case that would have been my reading of the rules all along.

    Some of the debate on this thread (and possibly the original question) is about a situation where the square or a line or column for that matter is immediately behind the wall i.e. no gap. So whichever movement/obstacle variant is in play the cavalry will be on one side of the wall and their target on the other if they moved to contact. My reading and that of others is that the cavalry cannot charge in these circumstances?

    Posted 1 year ago #

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